Castle Combe Dunlop Great and British this weekend.
Discussion
A superb meeting, well organised by Castle Combe and BARC. Castle Combe always seem to be able to attract a crowd that some other circuits fail to do.
They get the basics right. Good spectator banks, well kept facilities (toilets, cafe, bar etc ), decent quality food vendors, informative programme and strong local PR.
But I agree about the commentary comments above. It spoilt the experience for the good-sized crowd.
Mark - I was surprised that they hadn't asked you to join as the knowledgable Great and British expert.
They get the basics right. Good spectator banks, well kept facilities (toilets, cafe, bar etc ), decent quality food vendors, informative programme and strong local PR.
But I agree about the commentary comments above. It spoilt the experience for the good-sized crowd.
Mark - I was surprised that they hadn't asked you to join as the knowledgable Great and British expert.
Edited by Redlake27 on Tuesday 22 July 07:34
few of my pics from the weekend, mostly bias toward the westfields 
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i227/matt_172/Ca...
Redlake27 said:
A superb meeting, well organised by Castle Combe and BARC. Castle Combe always seem to be able to attract a crowd that some other circuits fail to do.
They get the basics right. Good spectator banks, well kept facilities (toilets, cafe, bar etc ), decent quality food vendors, informative programme and strong local PR.
But I agree about the commentary comments above. It spoilt the experience for the good-sized crowd.
Mark - I was surprised that they hadn't asked you to join as the knowledgable Great and British expert.
Yeh James a real shame, but it was the same 2 years ago when the G&B went to Combe, I was told that I wouldn't be needed as they would sort out their own chaps. The only problem on that occasion however was that the local guys had assumed I was coming & expected me to be there. A real mix up unfortunately.They get the basics right. Good spectator banks, well kept facilities (toilets, cafe, bar etc ), decent quality food vendors, informative programme and strong local PR.
But I agree about the commentary comments above. It spoilt the experience for the good-sized crowd.
Mark - I was surprised that they hadn't asked you to join as the knowledgable Great and British expert.
Fingers x'd for another season. BTW (if you can tell us) are Dunlop & BARC committed to the G&B for 2009 (and beyond???) If you don't want to reply on the forum you've got me private e-mail!!!
It was a good weekend. A lot of other circuits could learn from Combe in the important basics of getting people through the gates. OK it wasn't a huge crowd, but by club racing standards its one of the best around.
Mark, I'd heard a rumour, and Its only that at this stage, that there won't be a Dunlop G&B in 2009? Or not least in its current guise. We presume that BMW will attempt to run the MINI Challenge for the R56, but I would assume that will only occur if the pound/euro battle allows! At the moment its almost as expensive as buying a SEAT Supercopa!! The Radicals are hardly a crowd draw (I'll probably get shot down for that! But I don't believe that they are exciting enough to get the crowds in) The MINI's do a pretty good job, the Westies have some good battles and the Sport Maxx is potentially good (now the grids are looking more promising). It'll be interesting to see what happens!
Mark, I'd heard a rumour, and Its only that at this stage, that there won't be a Dunlop G&B in 2009? Or not least in its current guise. We presume that BMW will attempt to run the MINI Challenge for the R56, but I would assume that will only occur if the pound/euro battle allows! At the moment its almost as expensive as buying a SEAT Supercopa!! The Radicals are hardly a crowd draw (I'll probably get shot down for that! But I don't believe that they are exciting enough to get the crowds in) The MINI's do a pretty good job, the Westies have some good battles and the Sport Maxx is potentially good (now the grids are looking more promising). It'll be interesting to see what happens!
Radicals are great value for the performance for the competitor, and also great for their track time.
For the spectator they are pretty boring (as a lot of fast GT stuff is to be honest), however they do provide a chance to stroll around the paddock.
The BMW minis are great to watch, but super expensive for the competitors IMO .... Lots of money for not a lot of power - fast laps are down to the tyres. These cars will be worth nothing if the R56 takes over. At least with an old Leon Cupra you have a good basis for an LMA car as they are "proper" race cars with a tunable engine. The minis sadly are not ... As for the R56 - Why would you spend all that money when the leap to a current cupra or even a clio is tantilisingly close?
For the spectator they are pretty boring (as a lot of fast GT stuff is to be honest), however they do provide a chance to stroll around the paddock.
The BMW minis are great to watch, but super expensive for the competitors IMO .... Lots of money for not a lot of power - fast laps are down to the tyres. These cars will be worth nothing if the R56 takes over. At least with an old Leon Cupra you have a good basis for an LMA car as they are "proper" race cars with a tunable engine. The minis sadly are not ... As for the R56 - Why would you spend all that money when the leap to a current cupra or even a clio is tantilisingly close?
Thats an interesting take on it. From a personal perspective Radicals are not a cheap way to go racing! I can appreciate that some of the lower classes represent better value for money but if you start to look at the UK Cup as supposed to the BiDuro then there are some substantial racing budgets involved - arguably at least comparable to budgets for British GT or BritCar (and I know which I would sooner be involved in). My problem with the current Radical set up is that the grids are split into several classes, and the evolution of the series with cars like the PR6 etc only seem to have made this more confusing which then surely goes against the idea of a one make formulae, and thus the guys may as well be competing in V de V?
In the MINIs I would agree that its not cheap to run an S class car, the cars are somewhat more brittle, and the panel damage is certainly higher! (although perhaps not from last weekend at Combe!). To run an S is a budget of around £30-35k per season or an arrive and drive basis, with competitors running there own cars for around £20k. Club cars are a cheaper option, and with the racing being at least as close - budgets for arrive and drive are around £20k or for drivers running their own cars around £10-15k.
I would agree with you that there are questions over the future of the challenge for next season and it will be interesting to see what happens. If BMW choose to introduce the series for the R56 then I believe that they will only do this if a slot on the TOCA package, or similar can be made available - or if the MINIs are promoted to being the headline race of the package. If this can not be secured then I believe that they opt not to introduce the R56 challenge car in this country (incidentially the R56 is actually eligable for the current challenge but no factory support is given).
I am concerned about the direction of UK motorsport at present.
For me we're facing difficult times with the economy slowing down, marketing budgets being cut and peoples disposable incomes reducing. The MSA NEEDS to tackle this issue and look at the state of some of the championships in the UK. The state of some of the TOCA tour support classes this season has been a joke. 10 cars on the grid is just not sustainable - and part of the problem as I see it is barriers to entry - basically budget. In order to run in Clios this year its a £50k minimum budget, for SEAT's its closer to a £75k minimum without any damage! That simply isn't sustainable and the MSA don't seem to be tackling this issue. The classes doing well for numbers are the regional classes which perhaps have a lower barrier to initial entry such as DMN saloons, or Castle Combe saloons. I'm not suggesting there aren't guys out there spending big bucks but it has the potential to be done for reasonable cost. Basically we have too many championships, with too few spectators, too little public interest and too little promotion!
Its a tough one to know how to tackle it but something needs to be done.
In the MINIs I would agree that its not cheap to run an S class car, the cars are somewhat more brittle, and the panel damage is certainly higher! (although perhaps not from last weekend at Combe!). To run an S is a budget of around £30-35k per season or an arrive and drive basis, with competitors running there own cars for around £20k. Club cars are a cheaper option, and with the racing being at least as close - budgets for arrive and drive are around £20k or for drivers running their own cars around £10-15k.
I would agree with you that there are questions over the future of the challenge for next season and it will be interesting to see what happens. If BMW choose to introduce the series for the R56 then I believe that they will only do this if a slot on the TOCA package, or similar can be made available - or if the MINIs are promoted to being the headline race of the package. If this can not be secured then I believe that they opt not to introduce the R56 challenge car in this country (incidentially the R56 is actually eligable for the current challenge but no factory support is given).
I am concerned about the direction of UK motorsport at present.
For me we're facing difficult times with the economy slowing down, marketing budgets being cut and peoples disposable incomes reducing. The MSA NEEDS to tackle this issue and look at the state of some of the championships in the UK. The state of some of the TOCA tour support classes this season has been a joke. 10 cars on the grid is just not sustainable - and part of the problem as I see it is barriers to entry - basically budget. In order to run in Clios this year its a £50k minimum budget, for SEAT's its closer to a £75k minimum without any damage! That simply isn't sustainable and the MSA don't seem to be tackling this issue. The classes doing well for numbers are the regional classes which perhaps have a lower barrier to initial entry such as DMN saloons, or Castle Combe saloons. I'm not suggesting there aren't guys out there spending big bucks but it has the potential to be done for reasonable cost. Basically we have too many championships, with too few spectators, too little public interest and too little promotion!
Its a tough one to know how to tackle it but something needs to be done.
Edited by TimCrighton on Wednesday 23 July 11:43
I agree with you with regards to concerns with budget.
Sharing the paddock on Sunday with the BMW mini boys, I found it increadible to clock the numbers of £25k campervans, £50 lorrys, £35k tow vehicles etc.
Club motorsport needs to get back to basics. Whilst I applaud those who are wealthy enough to run in premier classes of UK motorsport (britcar / GT / Porsche cup), there really is no need for anything more than a sprinter, awning and brian james flatbed to run anything else.
Sharing the paddock on Sunday with the BMW mini boys, I found it increadible to clock the numbers of £25k campervans, £50 lorrys, £35k tow vehicles etc.
Club motorsport needs to get back to basics. Whilst I applaud those who are wealthy enough to run in premier classes of UK motorsport (britcar / GT / Porsche cup), there really is no need for anything more than a sprinter, awning and brian james flatbed to run anything else.
mat205125 said:
I agree with you with regards to concerns with budget.
Sharing the paddock on Sunday with the BMW mini boys, I found it increadible to clock the numbers of £25k campervans, £50 lorrys, £35k tow vehicles etc.
Club motorsport needs to get back to basics. Whilst I applaud those who are wealthy enough to run in premier classes of UK motorsport (britcar / GT / Porsche cup), there really is no need for anything more than a sprinter, awning and brian james flatbed to run anything else.
You clearly didn't walk up to the Westfield section Sharing the paddock on Sunday with the BMW mini boys, I found it increadible to clock the numbers of £25k campervans, £50 lorrys, £35k tow vehicles etc.
Club motorsport needs to get back to basics. Whilst I applaud those who are wealthy enough to run in premier classes of UK motorsport (britcar / GT / Porsche cup), there really is no need for anything more than a sprinter, awning and brian james flatbed to run anything else.
There you will find the 'normal' club setup and no snobs.
Just because I race a MINI doesn't make me a snob!!!!!!! We've got 2 big trucks but we're also running cars in the SEAT Cupra Series and European Clio championship and we need trucks that size to get 6 cars in!!
I agree with you, that there is a proper and very important place for club motorsport. Perhaps the MSA should make a clearer division between the 'career' classes and club racing, the problem I suppose with doing that is you will invariably hike the prices of the 'career' classes.
I understand your comments on the old Leon cup cars (We sold our two last year in to the DMN championship), but the purpose of the MINI Challenge is to be a one make formulae, which provides close racing and it works. The cars are probably of limited value but they are also 6 years old now. A 6 year old Clio cup car is probably in much the same boat. The S's are eligable for the Sport Maxx series too.
I think there is an important place for competitive one make racing, as well as more open regulation/class saloon car races. The one make classes are in theory there to highlight potential driving talent whilst the open classes (for example DMN, LMA Saloons etc) highlight of course driving talent but also vehicle development. The situation this season in GT's is a prudent example. I know of at least one team that have withdrawn from the series because whilst the GT4 regulations are supposed to provide an even playing field they don't seem to and when you're spending 100k+ a year you probably want it to be fair!
I don't know a definite answer to the problem but I do think that the MSA needs to consider its options very carefully. One problem I do forsee is whether they can ever look at the situation impartially with a CE thats also head of TOCA and thus in it for commercial gain...
I agree with you, that there is a proper and very important place for club motorsport. Perhaps the MSA should make a clearer division between the 'career' classes and club racing, the problem I suppose with doing that is you will invariably hike the prices of the 'career' classes.
I understand your comments on the old Leon cup cars (We sold our two last year in to the DMN championship), but the purpose of the MINI Challenge is to be a one make formulae, which provides close racing and it works. The cars are probably of limited value but they are also 6 years old now. A 6 year old Clio cup car is probably in much the same boat. The S's are eligable for the Sport Maxx series too.
I think there is an important place for competitive one make racing, as well as more open regulation/class saloon car races. The one make classes are in theory there to highlight potential driving talent whilst the open classes (for example DMN, LMA Saloons etc) highlight of course driving talent but also vehicle development. The situation this season in GT's is a prudent example. I know of at least one team that have withdrawn from the series because whilst the GT4 regulations are supposed to provide an even playing field they don't seem to and when you're spending 100k+ a year you probably want it to be fair!
I don't know a definite answer to the problem but I do think that the MSA needs to consider its options very carefully. One problem I do forsee is whether they can ever look at the situation impartially with a CE thats also head of TOCA and thus in it for commercial gain...
Sounds like another topic for me to stay away from.
I do have views & opinions on this & those championships that provide entertainment, are promotable and appear value for money, but an open forum is not for me!!! To many championship co-ordinators know me........
For what it's worth I do love the Mini's (old & new) and the Westies, but I'm biased as a current Mini owner & former Westfield one......
I do have views & opinions on this & those championships that provide entertainment, are promotable and appear value for money, but an open forum is not for me!!! To many championship co-ordinators know me........
For what it's worth I do love the Mini's (old & new) and the Westies, but I'm biased as a current Mini owner & former Westfield one......
Nicol@ said:
You clearly didn't walk up to the Westfield section
There you will find the 'normal' club setup and no snobs.
Had a good stroll about, and watched some of the other racing, but have to confess to being a 99% tin top person. Were the Westies in the bottom paddock? If they were, then they would have been completely invisible to me next to the orange mk1 escort that was down there There you will find the 'normal' club setup and no snobs.
mat205125 said:
Had a good stroll about, and watched some of the other racing, but have to confess to being a 99% tin top person. Were the Westies in the bottom paddock? If they were, then they would have been completely invisible to me next to the orange mk1 escort that was down there
We were around the cafe.I didn't spot the Evo's etc until they went down to the assembly area (then I had to go home and not watch them...boo hoo).
p.s. to Tim, you didn't notice my tongue smilie. (We have a friend in the Mini's too)
Edited by Nicol@ on Wednesday 23 July 16:33
Mark I can understand you want to preserve your ties with various formulae!
I think the RAC should establish a panel for those involved in the sport, somewhat like a parish council's role in a planning decision! Whereby the MSA (the planning commitee) would look to the opinion of the Parish Council to support or decline a decision. The MSA needs to be looking at classes which can genuinely be promotable and provide close racing as, in my opinion, not only will motorsport come under fire from the tightening economic situation but also need to pay thought to the fact its going to come under fire on envirnomental grounds too and it needs to make sure its drawing in the crowds and being actively promoted so as not to get left napping as it where.
Its all hypothetical really, they won't listen to me anyway!
I think the RAC should establish a panel for those involved in the sport, somewhat like a parish council's role in a planning decision! Whereby the MSA (the planning commitee) would look to the opinion of the Parish Council to support or decline a decision. The MSA needs to be looking at classes which can genuinely be promotable and provide close racing as, in my opinion, not only will motorsport come under fire from the tightening economic situation but also need to pay thought to the fact its going to come under fire on envirnomental grounds too and it needs to make sure its drawing in the crowds and being actively promoted so as not to get left napping as it where.
Its all hypothetical really, they won't listen to me anyway!
In other forums i've raised the question on radicals yes they are very boring to watch many people around me either spent more time larking around or sleeping,i just decided to walk the circuit something i very rarely do.If Radical want to make racing more intresting for us punters on the bank then ditch the enduro side of the championship, run The cup version as perhaps 2 sprints insteasd of a 50 min race the Club races are ok as they're about the right lengh,its not only the Radical cup which was boring but the sat max was alful made even worse but pitstops in the second race,its a shame but i'd rather the Great and british stayed away from combe in 2009 and let Combe run their own festival,if the radical cup was invited and they were sprint races i think you'll find a lot more people sat on the banks next year
Radicals - yes but the competitors pay HUGE cash for their longer races, and this pays for the meeting. Club motorsport isn't spectator focused as most organising clubs are simpley interested in race fees. Combe is somewhat different as the cash that spectators bring along is crucial to their well being.
If this package brings in less spectators than a normal clubbie meet, then I doubt Combe will invite them back..
If this package brings in less spectators than a normal clubbie meet, then I doubt Combe will invite them back..
Nicol@ said:
micron750 said:
In other forums i've raised the question on radicals yes they are very boring to watch
Why are their races shown on tv when they are so dull?In fairness to Radical, a number of their SR8 and Biduro battles have been thrillers, and certainly edit well to make decent TV.
G+B has found a niche between the professional packages such as TOCA and clubbie events. We have been approached by a number of championships wanting to partner with us on G+B next year, so hopefully by September we will have a clearer idea of next year's plans.
James@Dunlop
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff