Engines - Useable Power
Discussion
Having read the article, the Maclaren does it in SUB 11 seconds.
The American Speed Engines power should be taken with a bucket (not a pinch) of salt, a naturally aspirated chevy (carbed) of this power DOES NOT fire up and drive away from cold like a production car (seen Ted do this at the Factory) and know of two owners who have to persuade there true 450+ bhp engines to idle for a couple of minutes (both built by different builders).
We have done extensive research on the American Speed engines in the Ultima, and have not been able to find all important CAM details (as well as other bits) to even be able to give a reasonable Desktop Dyno reading, which we have managed with the two in question!
>> Edited by Vez on Wednesday 16th October 16:28
The American Speed Engines power should be taken with a bucket (not a pinch) of salt, a naturally aspirated chevy (carbed) of this power DOES NOT fire up and drive away from cold like a production car (seen Ted do this at the Factory) and know of two owners who have to persuade there true 450+ bhp engines to idle for a couple of minutes (both built by different builders).
We have done extensive research on the American Speed engines in the Ultima, and have not been able to find all important CAM details (as well as other bits) to even be able to give a reasonable Desktop Dyno reading, which we have managed with the two in question!
>> Edited by Vez on Wednesday 16th October 16:28
Hey guys, I just have some information about the Mclaren F1. The McLaren F1 does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, 0-100 in 6.3 seconds, and does the 1/4 mile in 11.6 seconds with 627 horsepower. Top speed is an estimated 231 mph but I have seen a video where the McLaren tops 391 kph. The Ultima GTR can do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, and the quarter mile in 11.9 seconds with a Chevy small block with ONLY 345 horsepower. The Ultima GTR I think can easily take the McLaren in cornering speeds given that the Mclaren F1 does 0.87g on the skid pad where as the Ultima GTR is around 1.00g. As for acceleration and top speeds, I think the Ultima can DEFINITELY take the McLaren if given a powerful enough engine. It's not magic, it's just physics. The Ultima GTR is already lighter then the McLaren, and the engineering concept is basically the same. Remember who McLaren used as a base for their design? That's right, they used two Ultimas to develop their supercar. Given all these facts, I think the Ultima can potentially blow the McLaren away if given enough horsepower.
Oh yeah, below is a link to the American web site that has showed Ultima Sports and MK4s in the past pulling amazing acceleration times with only a Chevy 350 engine. One Ultima pulled 0-180 mph in a mere 14.8 seconds. That kills Mclaren times!!!
www.ultimacars.com/fra_ultima_cars.htm
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 18:02
Oh yeah, below is a link to the American web site that has showed Ultima Sports and MK4s in the past pulling amazing acceleration times with only a Chevy 350 engine. One Ultima pulled 0-180 mph in a mere 14.8 seconds. That kills Mclaren times!!!
www.ultimacars.com/fra_ultima_cars.htm
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 18:02
Ves - If most owners were honest they too take the alledged power outputs with a teaspoon of salt. No mater how you look at it though the cars are quick!
I have three catagories .....
Fcuking quick!
Bloody fcking quick!
And .....
Stupidly bloody fcucking quick!
Catagory one would have an alledged 300-400bhp, two would have alledged 400-500bhp and three 500+bhp.
What the real power outputs are is really irrelevent and only leads to extreme pub talk (bollox) spurting out from people who have not been in the cars. One quick blast down a decent road in normally all it take to show them it don't matter!
I have three catagories .....
Fcuking quick!
Bloody fcking quick!
And .....
Stupidly bloody fcucking quick!
Catagory one would have an alledged 300-400bhp, two would have alledged 400-500bhp and three 500+bhp.
What the real power outputs are is really irrelevent and only leads to extreme pub talk (bollox) spurting out from people who have not been in the cars. One quick blast down a decent road in normally all it take to show them it don't matter!
Ultimalover - Maclaren did not use two Ultima's as a basis for their design. The two cars in question were used as development mules for testing components with the chassis adapted to suit. The F1 has a Carbon Fibre Monocoque chassis wich is VERY different to a space frame as in the Ultima.
No harm intended, just wanted to point out the error of your understanding.
Edited to add, the car you claim did the amazing 0-180 time may have had a Chevy 350 engine, but, that 350 reffers to the engine capacity, not it's bhp output. That could be anything, 400bhp, 500bhp, 600bhp ..... Etc.
Sorry mate.
>> Edited by ultimapaul on Wednesday 16th October 18:09
No harm intended, just wanted to point out the error of your understanding.
Edited to add, the car you claim did the amazing 0-180 time may have had a Chevy 350 engine, but, that 350 reffers to the engine capacity, not it's bhp output. That could be anything, 400bhp, 500bhp, 600bhp ..... Etc.
Sorry mate.
>> Edited by ultimapaul on Wednesday 16th October 18:09
ultimapaul said: Ves - If most owners were honest they too take the alledged power outputs with a teaspoon of salt. No mater how you look at it though the cars are quick!
I have three catagories .....
Fcuking quick!
Bloody fcking quick!
And .....
Stupidly bloody fcucking quick!
Catagory one would have an alledged 300-400bhp, two would have alledged 400-500bhp and three 500+bhp.
What the real power outputs are is really irrelevent and only leads to extreme pub talk (bollox) spurting out from people who have not been in the cars. One quick blast down a decent road in normally all it take to show them it don't matter!
Hi Paul
By your nomenclature, mine should be Bloody fcking quick! but by my reckoning it was only Fcuking quick! However, my trip to Santa Pod confirmed to me that it was not Fcuking quick!enough!!! In fact it is Fcuking slow! (at 14 seconds 98 terminal) a category you have not allowed for but which l sadly fall into. lt is an American Speed engine l may add.
By the way, do l have to use all eight of those long red wire thingys??
>> Edited by ultiman on Wednesday 16th October 18:36
Hi mate
No l think it unlikley as l have had my share of motoring fun for the summer.
Still, l'm off to the motor show on 24th so that should go some way to making up for a missed Sunday with you lot.
Also we have next years Le Mans to look forward to.
Hopefully l will have connected all 8 red thingys by then or found out what the real problem is. Actually this gives me an idea for a new area of discussion. gearbox power losses.
N
No l think it unlikley as l have had my share of motoring fun for the summer.
Still, l'm off to the motor show on 24th so that should go some way to making up for a missed Sunday with you lot.
Also we have next years Le Mans to look forward to.
Hopefully l will have connected all 8 red thingys by then or found out what the real problem is. Actually this gives me an idea for a new area of discussion. gearbox power losses.
N
You are right UltimaPaul, I should have clarified what I meant when McLaren used the Ultimas to develop their cars. What I really meant was that McLaren used two Ultimas to develop V8 and V12 test engines used for the F1. They also used the Ultimas to further develop their gearboxes, brakes and cooling systems. Ultima and Mclaren are different cars. The Ultima uses a steel tube spaceframe chassis while the Mclaren uses a Carbon Fibre Monocoque chassis. Each McLaren F1 starts life as an expensive roll of Carbon Fibre cloth. The McLaren is almost like a giant jig-saw puzzle cut into more than 5000 pieces. The pieces of the puzzle are then pressed around 70 different molds ranging from 2-17 layers of carbon fibre. The pieces are then bagged up and held in a vacuum before being tossed in a giant oven for 3 hours under 90psi pressure and 125 degrees centigrade to bond it all together. The cured carbon fibre pieces are then stuck together like building a huge model car with full sized parts until the body shell is completely ready for the paint shop. Each McLaren took 6000 man hours to complete so production was only 3 cars per month. Not everything went according plan. Gordon Murray turned to BMW and gave them an assignment to make an engine with 550 horsepower at a 250 kilo weight limit for the F1 road car. BMW couldn't reach that weight limit(16 kilos too heavy), but they more then compensated with 627 horsepower.
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 22:07
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 22:07
As for the Ultima that did 180 mph in less then 15 seconds, it can be found on the Ultima web site link below. The dry sumped, fuel injected 302 cu in engine produces 450 bhp @ 7250 rpm and gives performance of 0 - 180 mph in 14.8 seconds yet it is perfectly easy to drive on the road! Oh yeah, it only used a 4 speed transmission. Ultimapaul, I have seen pictures of your red GTR. It's beautiful!! How much time did it take you to build your car? How fun is it to drive and how fast does it go? I plan on ordering my kit in early 2003.
www.ultimasports.co.uk/sports/features1.html
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 22:11
www.ultimasports.co.uk/sports/features1.html
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 22:11
ULTIMALOVER said: As for the Ultima that did 180 mph in less then 15 seconds, it can be found on the Ultima web site link below. The dry sumped, fuel injected 302 cu in engine produces 450 bhp @ 7250 rpm and gives performance of 0 - 180 mph in 14.8 seconds yet it is perfectly easy to drive on the road! Oh yeah, it only used a 4 speed transmission. Ultimapaul, I have seen pictures of your red GTR. It's beautiful!! How much time did it take you to build your car? How fun is it to drive and how fast does it go? I plan on ordering my kit in early 2003.
www.ultimasports.co.uk/sports/features1.html
>> Edited by ULTIMALOVER on Wednesday 16th October 22:11
ULTIMALOVER, How much fun is it to drive? thats a small question with a big answer. A few examples:-
When oncoming drivers approach you on the opposite site of the road, they mouth the words, "what the fcuk is that" and point at the car. On the motorway the kids on the back seats jump around excitedly and wave; porsche drivers get horney and try to beat you (sensible ones dont bother). Being overtaken by Ultimapaul on a straight country road in Le Mans this year resulted in a new verb, being "ultima'd" meaning "wow, what a sound, l must have one of those". Does that help. Oh, and just driving it is fun too.
All I was saying was the American Speed Ultima engines do not produce the power stated by quite a way!
As one of the above posts rightly pointed out Mclaren did not Base the car on the Ultima at all, it was mearly a mule, mainly for the drive train and engine as well as a few other bits.
Did you know that Aston Martin have two Ultima's, they do alot of suspension geometry work with them!!
As far as a "big enough engine" to out do a Macca F1 goes, I recon the Macca's gonna put the power down way more effectively.
I would really like to see the 600+ supercharged ultima though (way to go dude). I presume you'll be using twin small chargers so as to keep the rev range nice and high, rather that a massive one? Interesting to know!
I will agree that the experience of the Ultima is like nothing I've ever felt before, even week after week of "tootlin'" round in it, the buzz is like a hive of hornets trying to get outta your ears
As one of the above posts rightly pointed out Mclaren did not Base the car on the Ultima at all, it was mearly a mule, mainly for the drive train and engine as well as a few other bits.
Did you know that Aston Martin have two Ultima's, they do alot of suspension geometry work with them!!
As far as a "big enough engine" to out do a Macca F1 goes, I recon the Macca's gonna put the power down way more effectively.
I would really like to see the 600+ supercharged ultima though (way to go dude). I presume you'll be using twin small chargers so as to keep the rev range nice and high, rather that a massive one? Interesting to know!
I will agree that the experience of the Ultima is like nothing I've ever felt before, even week after week of "tootlin'" round in it, the buzz is like a hive of hornets trying to get outta your ears
I'm thinking hard about a supercharger after really waking up a Miata with one. Concerns: where does the extra gas tank go? Will the G50/52 from PowerHaus II handle the torque and will the rest of the car handle the torque?
I'll agree that a well designed turbo system is far more desirable than a supercharger bolted to the top but way out of my league with regard to the need for "other accesories".
Ken
>> Edited by k wright on Friday 18th October 00:07
I'll agree that a well designed turbo system is far more desirable than a supercharger bolted to the top but way out of my league with regard to the need for "other accesories".
Ken
>> Edited by k wright on Friday 18th October 00:07
Ultimalover - Ultiman has hit the nail on the head. I can't add to that except to say watching his car wobble as I blasted past if FAR better than being Ultima'd. I know, One of the factory cars did it to me on the way down to Le Mans this year and scarred me sh!tless. When your not expecting it you DO jump!
Paul
Paul
vez said: All I was saying was the American Speed Ultima engines do not produce the power stated by quite a way!
Unless you have dynoed an American Speed engine I suggest you don't make such wild sweeping statements.
For the record my engine struggles to idle from cold, has solid cam with rocker rollers etc...
American speed have a good following by all but their UK engine builder compitetion, I had my own doubts which is why I had an engine started over here, I ran out of time and needed a turnkey which American Speed delivered.
And it goes bloody well, better than I expected even at the quater mile were my time was quicker than the road Mac F1 mentioned above (and I have only done two runs, it will go quicker!)
I must also point out that Teds ex race car did sub 11sec quaters (10.9), but mine is a road car on road tyres with road suspension settings etc... present another Ultima with a UK built real 500Bhp and we can see the difference.
Over the winter I might take the engine out and have it Dyno'd, I'm not expecting it to be exactly 526Bhp but I expect it to over 450Bhp! At least I will know.
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