Engines - Useable Power
Discussion
There's a lot said about BHP figures in all cars (I used to own TVR's, and they're famous for exaggerations in this respect). The thing is, it doesn't really matter how many BHP your engine is putting out.
The important question is actually whether you are happy with the way the engine drives. Would you be happier with a 350BHP engine that will happily trickle along in traffic, and make your car headbutt the horizon in any gear from any speed, or would you prefer a 650 BHP lump that wouldn't idle, and had a power band so narrow that you were constantly stirring the gear shift to get the car to move along?
The answer is that (on a road car) you want tractability, and fun. Numbers are meaningless. Ok, if you're going to be racing the car, the high power lumpy pig of an engine would be more desirable, but the actual BHP figures would still be meaningless. All that matters is that the engine feels powerful enough for what you want to do with it.
Just my 2 Euros worth.
James
The important question is actually whether you are happy with the way the engine drives. Would you be happier with a 350BHP engine that will happily trickle along in traffic, and make your car headbutt the horizon in any gear from any speed, or would you prefer a 650 BHP lump that wouldn't idle, and had a power band so narrow that you were constantly stirring the gear shift to get the car to move along?
The answer is that (on a road car) you want tractability, and fun. Numbers are meaningless. Ok, if you're going to be racing the car, the high power lumpy pig of an engine would be more desirable, but the actual BHP figures would still be meaningless. All that matters is that the engine feels powerful enough for what you want to do with it.
Just my 2 Euros worth.
James
Fortunatelly I come from the cossie faternity so I am used to people making wild claims.
I once was asked by Burtons a (reputable ford tuner?) the spec of my engine when I told them they promptly replied 'Oh its 450Bhp then!'. fact is I knew what it produced which was around 350Bhp.
Unfortunatelly I have as much faith in a computer Dyno as the bloke the other day that told me his 2wd cossie was timed at 2.8sec to 60mph and could hit 100 in 6sec.
My engine has been dyno'd by American speed and the only way to disprove them (or not) is to Dyno it over here, I beleive the factory have done this, and I may do so myself.
On the quarter front, if power is speed then 360bhp is 109mph (my cossie), 630Bhp is 134mph (Mac F1) so my car at 130mph is 526Bhp.
The Final word should go to JAMES who is 100% right, its how happy you are with the performance, not the claims/hype!
I once was asked by Burtons a (reputable ford tuner?) the spec of my engine when I told them they promptly replied 'Oh its 450Bhp then!'. fact is I knew what it produced which was around 350Bhp.
Unfortunatelly I have as much faith in a computer Dyno as the bloke the other day that told me his 2wd cossie was timed at 2.8sec to 60mph and could hit 100 in 6sec.
My engine has been dyno'd by American speed and the only way to disprove them (or not) is to Dyno it over here, I beleive the factory have done this, and I may do so myself.
On the quarter front, if power is speed then 360bhp is 109mph (my cossie), 630Bhp is 134mph (Mac F1) so my car at 130mph is 526Bhp.
The Final word should go to JAMES who is 100% right, its how happy you are with the performance, not the claims/hype!
ultimaandy said:
My engine has been dyno'd by American speed and the only way to disprove them (or not) is to Dyno it over here, I beleive the factory have done this, and I may do so myself.
On the quarter front, if power is speed then 360bhp is 109mph (my cossie), 630Bhp is 134mph (Mac F1) so my car at 130mph is 526Bhp.
The Final word should go to JAMES who is 100% right, its how happy you are with the performance, not the claims/hype!
I hope you don't get angry
But you are wrong the mph and wieigt of the car is the factors that count...i see that you not have been in the dragracing sean so mutch...bu tI have some experience of this and your enigine is leaving 400rwhp,then you have the gearbox loss,so 450 or a little more would seams to be right
On more thing you must take in to consideration is that the USA mesure ther horses in the SAE way and we in DIN so there is a little diffrence here
So your 530hp in the USA are proberly all in the stable
Peak power is a meaningless figure anyway when it comes to performance. Torque is a much better measure of how powerful your engine is. You can have a high BHP screamer that won't be as quick as a lower reving torquey engine.
If you don't believe me, stick a bike engine into a Rover SD1 and see if it's as quick as the same car with a 3500cc V8 lump putting out the same power.
As the old saying goes. There's no substitute for cubes. And cubes give torque.
James
If you don't believe me, stick a bike engine into a Rover SD1 and see if it's as quick as the same car with a 3500cc V8 lump putting out the same power.
As the old saying goes. There's no substitute for cubes. And cubes give torque.
James
Hi, I thought i would drop by and say a few words.
During my 20 years in the Automotive design arena, i hear many outragious claims made in BHP and (useable) power. As a reference i use the time i spent with (in recent years) TWR, Porsche and Aston Martin. I have been fortunate enough to drive a McLaren F1, XJ220 and a few other exotic cars (most recently a Vanquish) as i worked for Aston Martin in my last design job. The comments about the Mclaren ...0-60 and other stuff is relevant only to the particular car driven and conditions of the day. After a visit to Ultima and Ted, i can assure you the Ultima is as good...the one thing u guys seem to neglect is the price you have paid for near (if not better) performance.
Everyone claims better BHP from an engine, the things to bear in mind are reliability, strength, serviceability, cost of parts and ease of service, be honest with yourselves and say YOU CANNOT AFFORD a McLaren F1 or a Jag XJ220.
I am about to order my fist stage kit from Ted after doing a lot of research
but i think i have found my ideal power to weight ratio car for everyday use that i can afford...and that is what Ultima represents.....as to what i decide to throw in the back ??...i dunno yet....but a crate engine from the US 450 Ci with 430 BHP @ $4995 didnt seem too bad a deal from www.chevy350engines.com/ce13.html
During my 20 years in the Automotive design arena, i hear many outragious claims made in BHP and (useable) power. As a reference i use the time i spent with (in recent years) TWR, Porsche and Aston Martin. I have been fortunate enough to drive a McLaren F1, XJ220 and a few other exotic cars (most recently a Vanquish) as i worked for Aston Martin in my last design job. The comments about the Mclaren ...0-60 and other stuff is relevant only to the particular car driven and conditions of the day. After a visit to Ultima and Ted, i can assure you the Ultima is as good...the one thing u guys seem to neglect is the price you have paid for near (if not better) performance.
Everyone claims better BHP from an engine, the things to bear in mind are reliability, strength, serviceability, cost of parts and ease of service, be honest with yourselves and say YOU CANNOT AFFORD a McLaren F1 or a Jag XJ220.
I am about to order my fist stage kit from Ted after doing a lot of research
but i think i have found my ideal power to weight ratio car for everyday use that i can afford...and that is what Ultima represents.....as to what i decide to throw in the back ??...i dunno yet....but a crate engine from the US 450 Ci with 430 BHP @ $4995 didnt seem too bad a deal from www.chevy350engines.com/ce13.html
Ok, it would seem that we have quite a mixed opinion about which type, manufacturer, and purpose is suitable to what type of engine etc. The engine above does sound at first like a "screaming bargain", but this brings us back to the U.S. vs. U.K. measuring yardstick.
Does anyone know what the conversion factor or "loss" is as a percentage (Din etc) so it is possible to convert US into UK power? Also you guys out there with Desktop Dyno engine build software, if you look at the above engine, all the cam details are present, so it should be possible to get a fairly accurate "software" figure as at American Speed they keep this info to themselves. Maybe from that we can work out the real conversion factor. I see they also do a motor for towing which produces 350hp but with over 500ft/lbs of torque and at only 2800rpm. That out to wreck a few weak boxes
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Friday 18th October 18:09
Does anyone know what the conversion factor or "loss" is as a percentage (Din etc) so it is possible to convert US into UK power? Also you guys out there with Desktop Dyno engine build software, if you look at the above engine, all the cam details are present, so it should be possible to get a fairly accurate "software" figure as at American Speed they keep this info to themselves. Maybe from that we can work out the real conversion factor. I see they also do a motor for towing which produces 350hp but with over 500ft/lbs of torque and at only 2800rpm. That out to wreck a few weak boxes
>> Edited by ultimasimon on Friday 18th October 18:09
Naive question I know but is the chevy350engines.com 450 HO engine a small block? It looks like it is a big block and I'm not aware of 350s being bored out as big as 450 unless they were pretty exotic.
Another obvious downer on that engine is that it uses a new block. The emssions regs for SVA are tied to the age of the block. Therefore a new block means 2002/2003 emissions which means cats and full EFI. American Speed know about this and have a stock of 72-74 remanufactured blocks that they supply with the Ultima package.
For my own car I've pretty much settled on the American Speed 375 bhp 383ci. As this is my first seriously powerful car and the lightest since I learned to drive on a 1.1 Fiesta it seems prudent not to go overboard. I agree totally with what James was saying about torque though. I'd much rather have a low spec 383 than a higher powered 350 which would be just that bit peakier and with a rougher idle (prolly sod all in it outside of the pub). Course it saves a lot of cash too so I can actually get my car on the road... Lots of room for tinkering as well once I've got a handle on Chevy terminology...full EFI is a certainty (bye, bye 88 Fiesta style cold start blues).
The silver factory demonstrator that Ted gave me a ride in has a measly 420bhp. It seemed pretty user friendly - when not in rocket mode that is
.
Another obvious downer on that engine is that it uses a new block. The emssions regs for SVA are tied to the age of the block. Therefore a new block means 2002/2003 emissions which means cats and full EFI. American Speed know about this and have a stock of 72-74 remanufactured blocks that they supply with the Ultima package.
For my own car I've pretty much settled on the American Speed 375 bhp 383ci. As this is my first seriously powerful car and the lightest since I learned to drive on a 1.1 Fiesta it seems prudent not to go overboard. I agree totally with what James was saying about torque though. I'd much rather have a low spec 383 than a higher powered 350 which would be just that bit peakier and with a rougher idle (prolly sod all in it outside of the pub). Course it saves a lot of cash too so I can actually get my car on the road... Lots of room for tinkering as well once I've got a handle on Chevy terminology...full EFI is a certainty (bye, bye 88 Fiesta style cold start blues).
The silver factory demonstrator that Ted gave me a ride in has a measly 420bhp. It seemed pretty user friendly - when not in rocket mode that is
.I'm getting rather fed up with some of the pub talk bollox ..... can we not just enjoy our cars, be grateful we don't have to climb aboard some shitty max'd up head every weekend for our fun (errrr, that came out wrong) and close this thread ........
Mines still bigger than yours tho'
Mines still bigger than yours tho'
ultimapaul said: I'm getting rather fed up with some of the pub talk bollox ..... can we not just enjoy our cars, be grateful we don't have to climb aboard some shitty max'd up head every weekend for our fun (errrr, that came out wrong) and close this thread ........
Mines still bigger than yours tho'
Here here Paul,
but I've seen the photo's, you souldn't
brag.
Ps. All you wimp's out there buying crate motors !!
Build you own, and have some fun
I think that the 454 from chevy350engines.com is a big block. It MUST be a typo in the text which describes it as a small block!!! As far as I know, the small block just won't go that BIG. (I'm just waiting to get shot down about that)
The image of the engine (on page www.chevy350engines.com/highperfengines.html) describes it as a big block.
Phil
>> Edited by canam-phil on Friday 18th October 22:26
The image of the engine (on page www.chevy350engines.com/highperfengines.html) describes it as a big block.
Phil
>> Edited by canam-phil on Friday 18th October 22:26
Hi Phil, Thanx for your reply, it would seem that I have started something on this thread now :0)
All I wanted was some honest advice; and by God have I got it! I am still mighty confused but I still have the factory visit awaiting. Hopefully all will be revealed when I talk to some owners on Sunday. My total budget is circa £50k, but my spreadsheet puts me well over that @ 500 (US)bhp. If I could blag a ride then maybe I could appredicate 500+hp in a fag-packet-weight car - will have to wait and see. PS I build "super-cheap" pc's and design and build the best alarm systems on the planet if it's any trade off. Just ask for details.
Cheers, Simon
All I wanted was some honest advice; and by God have I got it! I am still mighty confused but I still have the factory visit awaiting. Hopefully all will be revealed when I talk to some owners on Sunday. My total budget is circa £50k, but my spreadsheet puts me well over that @ 500 (US)bhp. If I could blag a ride then maybe I could appredicate 500+hp in a fag-packet-weight car - will have to wait and see. PS I build "super-cheap" pc's and design and build the best alarm systems on the planet if it's any trade off. Just ask for details.
Cheers, Simon
But the thing is to avoid emissions the block does not have to be '72/'73 but can be as new as '82. The emissions for this era were simply no visable smoke.
And when we say 'as new' there are so many block manufacturers out there (and each has so many different block numbers all over it) do you really think the DVLC are gonna investigate the numbers?
It all comes down to carefully worded reciepts!
And when we say 'as new' there are so many block manufacturers out there (and each has so many different block numbers all over it) do you really think the DVLC are gonna investigate the numbers?
It all comes down to carefully worded reciepts!
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