Ultima GTR vs. FFR GTM?
Discussion
Pictures of the latest track mule thyre using to test (play with) the aero
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/track/galle...
Im sorry for the earlier rant guys. I love the GTR too...Its just that The GTM just outdoes it.
ONE FIFTH the initial cost
Better(more sensual and fluid Ferrari/ muscle car) looks.
Extremely roomier and more comfortable interior.
Same stats, same running gear...except the GTM weighs a lil more for the POWER WINDOWS, AC, HEATER, CARPET, and tons of sound deadening....
It just seems the right choice....the only choice.
The GTR is King.....and the King has been dethroned.
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/track/galle...
Im sorry for the earlier rant guys. I love the GTR too...Its just that The GTM just outdoes it.
ONE FIFTH the initial cost
Better(more sensual and fluid Ferrari/ muscle car) looks.
Extremely roomier and more comfortable interior.
Same stats, same running gear...except the GTM weighs a lil more for the POWER WINDOWS, AC, HEATER, CARPET, and tons of sound deadening....
It just seems the right choice....the only choice.
The GTR is King.....and the King has been dethroned.
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html
Please read the homepage and learn more about the GTM.
I know that because the GTR IS an amazing car and WE have all loved it all these years we want it to stay at the top because were DIE HARDS. But this GTM is just amazing. Take a chance on the new girl. Get to know her.
Please read the homepage and learn more about the GTM.
I know that because the GTR IS an amazing car and WE have all loved it all these years we want it to stay at the top because were DIE HARDS. But this GTM is just amazing. Take a chance on the new girl. Get to know her.
Hurricane Tiger said:
Pictures of the latest track mule thyre using to test (play with) the aero
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/track/galle...
Im sorry for the earlier rant guys. I love the GTR too...Its just that The GTM just outdoes it.
ONE FIFTH the initial cost
Better(more sensual and fluid Ferrari/ muscle car) looks.
Extremely roomier and more comfortable interior.
Same stats, same running gear...except the GTM weighs a lil more for the POWER WINDOWS, AC, HEATER, CARPET, and tons of sound deadening....
It just seems the right choice....the only choice.
The GTR is King.....and the King has been dethroned.
ONE FIFTH the initial cost - perhaps, but it looks like it toohttp://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/gallery/track/galle...
Im sorry for the earlier rant guys. I love the GTR too...Its just that The GTM just outdoes it.
ONE FIFTH the initial cost
Better(more sensual and fluid Ferrari/ muscle car) looks.
Extremely roomier and more comfortable interior.
Same stats, same running gear...except the GTM weighs a lil more for the POWER WINDOWS, AC, HEATER, CARPET, and tons of sound deadening....
It just seems the right choice....the only choice.
The GTR is King.....and the King has been dethroned.
Better(more sensual and fluid Ferrari/ muscle car) looks - more like yet another poorly conceived kitcar to my eye - roofline is way too low for rear flanks for starters
Extremely roomier and more comfortable interior. - Have you had an Ultima for comparison?
Same stats, same running gear...except the GTM weighs a lil more for the POWER WINDOWS, AC, HEATER, CARPET, and tons of sound deadening.... - Same running gear? So it uses bespoke suspension/hubs etc. then? AC/heater/carpet/leather/sound deadening etc.etc.etc. are all easily fittd to an Ultima too.
It just seems the right choice....the only choice - for you perhaps.
The GTR is King.....and the King has been dethroned - and you think WE'RE deluded and unhinged!
You obviously love the GTM, but I maintain that it's like pulling a gorgeous bird when pi$$ed at a club - it seems like a good idea at the time - but you wake up to find it's some overweight munter in a smart dress.
Edited by Stig on Friday 9th November 14:41
Who put a burr under your saddle? Why do you feel you have to race to the defense of the GTM? Do you honestly believe you can build a descent GTM with an LS7 and race-proven parts in the trans, brakes, pads, wheels, tires, dampers, etc., for under $50k…and still have money for, paint, interior upgrades AND gas?
(As a side note for all future Ultima bashers and Internet bashers in general, this is a forum for information on Ultima building tips and tricks, mods, and Ultima community activities. It is not (nor is any other topical forum) suitable ground for arguing that a Viper is faster than a GTR…or that Craftsman tools are better than Stanley…or that a GTM is better than a GTR. 99% of the good folks on this forum (and respective other forums) subscribe because they like (insert topic) the Ultima, are building an Ultima, or own an Ultima. If you want to see which one is better, take your $30k POS ugly GTM to the track and find out. In my opinion (which, BTW, is the only one that counts), the track is the only metric that matters. And, if you want to bash Ultima owners/builders and Ultima cars, feel free to do so on your GTM forum. With this type of post, you can’t expect to get any kind of logical response. Following that line of thinking, this is the very last antagonistic post I will waste my time trying to deal with rationally.)
While the GTM and GTR have a lot in common in terms of general concept, they are built for separate reasons. The GTM, in my opinion, is a compromise, albeit a reasonable one for some people. From my perspective, I can’t see why you would put power windows and a thumpin' stereo in a street-legal race car. Why would you care about passenger comfort in a race car? Probably because that's all you will ever be…a passenger.
Have you ever been in a race car as a passenger? You will find that there is very little shoulder room for the passenger…and very little leg room. There’s more passenger leg room in a GTR than a NASCAR.
While I don't disagree that the GTM is (probably) a descent kit car, I can't believe it is as well sorted as an Ultima. In fact, at our last Ultima builder's meeting, we had a couple of GTM builders pay a visit. They said they were having a terrible time getting the parts and that the parts in the GTR were higher quality. That was a while ago, so maybe they have since improved in that area.
Interesting that they have this on their order sheet. “I understand that Factory Five Racing will make every attempt to have the chassis kit ready at the estimated production date. I accept that Factory Five Racing may change production dates as needed and I agree to accept these changes.” And this… “The configuration of the Factory Five GTM kit can and will change over time. Factory Five Racing, Inc. reserves the right to make changes to the kit and it’s configuration which may affect my order and I agree to accept these changes.” Notice the improper use of “it’s” in the last sentence. Maybe they overlooked something in the kit, as well as on the order form.
By the way, it’s $4k more if you want nice wheels, adjustable rod ends, and air conditioning (doesn’t include compressor, condenser, or accumulator). And, “it’s” $600 more if you want everything in a shipping crate.
Now, if you look at what else is needed to finish the GTM, you will find a comprehensive list on the GTM site. Guess what? It totals $17,080.88. Add that to the $20k “base” price and you are starting to get the picture, ay Tiger? Sure, you could get parts from the breakers (junk yard), or buy used parts. But would you do so for you new, fancy POS GTM? Me thinks not.
So let’s summarize: $20k base, $4k for nice wheels and A/C kit, $17k for the rest of the car (plus shipping). Now you are at $41k before engine and trans. If you really want a strong trans, you are going to spend AT LEAST $8k. A new LS7 is about $13k. And you still need a battery! That puts everything right at $62k before you paint, or turn a bolt. Let’s use a conservative $3k for paint. Now we're around $65k. Not too bad. My GTR will cost me somewhere between $88k and $89k when done (LS7 included). So, it looks like the difference is really about $25k. Of course, my trans is a little more than the base (about $3k more). My instruments are not out of a Corvette, and I have a 4-camera video system to record all of the GTMs I am passing at track days and an in-car computer for convenience.
Since the GTM is a bigger, heavier car, I think even you would agree that, with the same power, the GTR will be quicker/faster. So, a discussion on performance is useless.
Time to build a GTM has got to be WAY longer than a GTR. The GTR comes with everything in a box…right down to the last rivet, nut, and bolt. It appears a GTM builder may have countless hours and hours of sourcing in order to accumulate all of the parts required that the factory doesn’t supply. Shipping costs for all of the parts is anyone's guess.
Lastly, all of the pricing for additional parts listed are retial for stock GM components. If you want to upgrade as you go, it's going to be more dough.
There’s my cursory summary of GTM vs. GTR. Is it worth the money? Probably. Had I not known about the GTR, I very well may have gone with the GTM. The GTR looks more like a race car to me, and it outperforms the GTM. So, for me, the GTR is a better choice. And that’s what it’s all about…
(As a side note for all future Ultima bashers and Internet bashers in general, this is a forum for information on Ultima building tips and tricks, mods, and Ultima community activities. It is not (nor is any other topical forum) suitable ground for arguing that a Viper is faster than a GTR…or that Craftsman tools are better than Stanley…or that a GTM is better than a GTR. 99% of the good folks on this forum (and respective other forums) subscribe because they like (insert topic) the Ultima, are building an Ultima, or own an Ultima. If you want to see which one is better, take your $30k POS ugly GTM to the track and find out. In my opinion (which, BTW, is the only one that counts), the track is the only metric that matters. And, if you want to bash Ultima owners/builders and Ultima cars, feel free to do so on your GTM forum. With this type of post, you can’t expect to get any kind of logical response. Following that line of thinking, this is the very last antagonistic post I will waste my time trying to deal with rationally.)
While the GTM and GTR have a lot in common in terms of general concept, they are built for separate reasons. The GTM, in my opinion, is a compromise, albeit a reasonable one for some people. From my perspective, I can’t see why you would put power windows and a thumpin' stereo in a street-legal race car. Why would you care about passenger comfort in a race car? Probably because that's all you will ever be…a passenger.
Have you ever been in a race car as a passenger? You will find that there is very little shoulder room for the passenger…and very little leg room. There’s more passenger leg room in a GTR than a NASCAR.While I don't disagree that the GTM is (probably) a descent kit car, I can't believe it is as well sorted as an Ultima. In fact, at our last Ultima builder's meeting, we had a couple of GTM builders pay a visit. They said they were having a terrible time getting the parts and that the parts in the GTR were higher quality. That was a while ago, so maybe they have since improved in that area.
Interesting that they have this on their order sheet. “I understand that Factory Five Racing will make every attempt to have the chassis kit ready at the estimated production date. I accept that Factory Five Racing may change production dates as needed and I agree to accept these changes.” And this… “The configuration of the Factory Five GTM kit can and will change over time. Factory Five Racing, Inc. reserves the right to make changes to the kit and it’s configuration which may affect my order and I agree to accept these changes.” Notice the improper use of “it’s” in the last sentence. Maybe they overlooked something in the kit, as well as on the order form.
By the way, it’s $4k more if you want nice wheels, adjustable rod ends, and air conditioning (doesn’t include compressor, condenser, or accumulator). And, “it’s” $600 more if you want everything in a shipping crate.
Now, if you look at what else is needed to finish the GTM, you will find a comprehensive list on the GTM site. Guess what? It totals $17,080.88. Add that to the $20k “base” price and you are starting to get the picture, ay Tiger? Sure, you could get parts from the breakers (junk yard), or buy used parts. But would you do so for you new, fancy POS GTM?
Me thinks not.So let’s summarize: $20k base, $4k for nice wheels and A/C kit, $17k for the rest of the car (plus shipping). Now you are at $41k before engine and trans. If you really want a strong trans, you are going to spend AT LEAST $8k. A new LS7 is about $13k. And you still need a battery!
That puts everything right at $62k before you paint, or turn a bolt. Let’s use a conservative $3k for paint. Now we're around $65k. Not too bad. My GTR will cost me somewhere between $88k and $89k when done (LS7 included). So, it looks like the difference is really about $25k. Of course, my trans is a little more than the base (about $3k more). My instruments are not out of a Corvette, and I have a 4-camera video system to record all of the GTMs I am passing at track days and an in-car computer for convenience.Since the GTM is a bigger, heavier car, I think even you would agree that, with the same power, the GTR will be quicker/faster. So, a discussion on performance is useless.
Time to build a GTM has got to be WAY longer than a GTR. The GTR comes with everything in a box…right down to the last rivet, nut, and bolt. It appears a GTM builder may have countless hours and hours of sourcing in order to accumulate all of the parts required that the factory doesn’t supply. Shipping costs for all of the parts is anyone's guess.
Lastly, all of the pricing for additional parts listed are retial for stock GM components. If you want to upgrade as you go, it's going to be more dough.
There’s my cursory summary of GTM vs. GTR. Is it worth the money? Probably. Had I not known about the GTR, I very well may have gone with the GTM. The GTR looks more like a race car to me, and it outperforms the GTM. So, for me, the GTR is a better choice. And that’s what it’s all about…
Wow, this has gotten heated. I need my popcorn.
Hey guys I'm building a (LS7/CMS G50-52) GTR. So there is my bias. But I have 2 really good friends that are building GTM's. They are both great builders and will have really great cars when they are done. One is using a LS6 Z06 donor motor and a CMS G50-03. The other is using a LS2 with some mild upgrades and is considering a Mandiola transaxle. The LS6 build is going all donor, stock parts. He estimates the cost will be about $55 when done. The other guy will build a highly customized GTM and his cost is unknown at this time. I will certainly have more money invested in my GTR when I'm done ($75-80). To me, it is all worth it. For others, it wouldn't be. I don't think I could drive a GTM for all its worth and certainly won't be able to drive my GTR for all its worth.
Styling is each persons own opinion. If cost & comfort are an issue, go with the GTM. If heritage and performance are more important, it comes at a cost. The GTR has been produced since 1983 and has multiple world records proving its abilities. Argue all you want about performance, but your rant means nothing unless you happen to beat one of the records. Talk is cheap. Show us the money....
We each get to make our own choice and nobody is going to write something here that will change another mans opinion.
More popcorn please...
Paul
Hey guys I'm building a (LS7/CMS G50-52) GTR. So there is my bias. But I have 2 really good friends that are building GTM's. They are both great builders and will have really great cars when they are done. One is using a LS6 Z06 donor motor and a CMS G50-03. The other is using a LS2 with some mild upgrades and is considering a Mandiola transaxle. The LS6 build is going all donor, stock parts. He estimates the cost will be about $55 when done. The other guy will build a highly customized GTM and his cost is unknown at this time. I will certainly have more money invested in my GTR when I'm done ($75-80). To me, it is all worth it. For others, it wouldn't be. I don't think I could drive a GTM for all its worth and certainly won't be able to drive my GTR for all its worth.
Styling is each persons own opinion. If cost & comfort are an issue, go with the GTM. If heritage and performance are more important, it comes at a cost. The GTR has been produced since 1983 and has multiple world records proving its abilities. Argue all you want about performance, but your rant means nothing unless you happen to beat one of the records. Talk is cheap. Show us the money....
We each get to make our own choice and nobody is going to write something here that will change another mans opinion.
More popcorn please...
Paul
Hurricane Tiger said:
Are you guy insane?
GTR FACTS
FACT= Five times as much to get the full kit
FACT=TINY, CRAMPED cabin where the seats are so close together you rub agaisnt the person all the time and smack off them on turns. Interior also sux.
FACT=The Ultima is so cramped and unattractive because it was NEVER meant to be sold. It was a F1 parts test mule.
GTM FACTS
Fact= COST ONE FIFTH!
Fact= Full size cabin. A foot between passenger and driver. Nice interior.
Fact= GTM was built tested and redesigned,rebuilt and retested years before it was sold to the public. Its far more aestheticly pleasing. And with the EIGHTY THOUSAND you save you could easily buy ANOTHER for your wife. and max them both out with the finest parts money can buy.
interesting facts there.GTR FACTS
FACT= Five times as much to get the full kit
FACT=TINY, CRAMPED cabin where the seats are so close together you rub agaisnt the person all the time and smack off them on turns. Interior also sux.
FACT=The Ultima is so cramped and unattractive because it was NEVER meant to be sold. It was a F1 parts test mule.
GTM FACTS
Fact= COST ONE FIFTH!
Fact= Full size cabin. A foot between passenger and driver. Nice interior.
Fact= GTM was built tested and redesigned,rebuilt and retested years before it was sold to the public. Its far more aestheticly pleasing. And with the EIGHTY THOUSAND you save you could easily buy ANOTHER for your wife. and max them both out with the finest parts money can buy.
Quite clear from this that you actually know nothing about the Ultima.
Firstly the the F1 programme purchased 2 Ultima kits, Ultimas had already been around for a while and have been progressivelly developed for the last 15years or so and the GTR is the latest model as a result of that development.
Secondly I can't ever remember rubbing or bumping again the passeneger, ever!
Finally I built my Ultima for around $90k so were you think the $80k saving is just beggers beleif.... or just plain ignorance.
Now I quite like the GTM and I do see it as cheaper competition to the Ultima but it doesn't need people speading stupid statements like this that are simply wrong.
Ok , I'll admit the GTR has bespoke parts in the suspension.
BUT, the C5 Corvettes suspension is forged aluminum it already rocks.
And dont say it costs 80k to build a GTM. FFR Built thiers with a new GT3 transaxle, A new LS7 and a $7000 paintjob all for well under 60k.
THEY ALREADY BUILT ONE FOR UNDER 62k
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Red LS7 GTM Build Cost Sheet
Kit Price:
Base kit price $19,900
Air Conditioning $1,500
Seat track $69
Donor Corvette:
1999 fixed roof Corvette 18,000 miles $8,500
Replacement radiator $160
Replacement hood hinge $79
Drivetrain:
2006 LS7 Crate engine $13,000
Stand alone engine harness/computer $1,500
2003 Porsche GT3 transaxle $4,500
Heavy duty clutch $600
Starter $450
CV joints $80
Porsche shift mechanism $160
Dry Sump Tank $380
Mufflers $320
Exterior:
Paint Job $7,000
Wheels $2,200
Tires $920
Interior:
Stereo $280
Speakers $135
Total: $61,733
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
THATS WITH A 7K PAINT JOB!
Have you looked at the GTM pictures that have been posted IN THIS THREAD???
That is NOT a shabby car. Its gorgeous. Like many have said the bastard child of a Ferrari and a GT40.
The Ultima is amazingly overpriced!
ITS CRAMPED.
Its interior is NON EXISTANT!
And you guys say all those things can be installed in the interior....no...you cant....the Ultima doesnt have such fit and finish as POWER WINDOWS....hell it doesnt even have roll down windows AT ALL. The GTM comes with all those yumies.
The GTM is more streetable.
The GTM Does cost half as much to finish with comperable performance.
The GTM is more comfortable with a finished interior and roominess.
The GTM's only real foible is that weighs a measly hundred pounds more and thats because it has POWER WINDOWS and a real interior. You can cut the fripperies out , heaters, ac, moving side windows if you want and drop two hundred pounds.
The only thing you can REALLY say is that the GTR has a bespoke suspension.
Well the Corvette has an AMAZING aftermarket for bespoke one off suspension.
For the cost of The Ultima GTR I can build a GTM to be MUCH faster.
And it will look better doing it.
PERIOD!
You want to talk about winning races, and that the GTM is "a bigger heavier car"
Dude its ONE hundred pounds and thats because the GTM HAS AMENITIES. Like a roomy comfortable cockpit with REAL WORKING POWER WINDOWS!
Why do I repeat myself? Cause Im gonna have to.
You guys are in serious denial if you think the GTR is better.
The GTM is better looking.
The GTM is far more comfortable.
The GTM IS actualy more finished. you dont HAVE to use the original suspension. For the cash savings your could have a bespoke suspension forged out of gold.
Both cars are 95% bespoke custom dont harang me over the suspension as your one clarion call. The HUGE amount of money saved will allow the GTM builder to have custom forgings made out of titanium.
And as for the "all you'll ever be is a passenger in a GTR" Maybe.
But not because I cant afford one. Im not rich but Ive NEVER had to worry about money. And you know what? I dont have anything as cool as a GTR or GTM YET.... but with the income I have It will NOT be long.
I currently drive a 01 Camaro and fell for the GTR AND GTM amongst other reasons because Ide have TWO LS powered cars.
I have ALWAYS been a fan of the GTR. I wanted the spyder forever. (because it gets rid of that stupid bubble cockpit.) And always felt Ide get one if they were
more attractive from the front.
OH AND YES I KNOW ...NO ONE WILL EVER SEE THE FRONT.(wich is why the GTR's rear flanks ARE GORGEOUS.
YES I ADMIT IT!
And yes STOCK with the SAME running gear IM SURE The GTR will win. On the track.
But my point is while the GTM will be a half second behind. The driver can stretch out, cock a jaunty elbow OUT THE WINDOW and use the TENS of THOUSANDS he saved to drown his sorrows and build another.
You see you guys. You cant say. "oh well. in the GTM would lose heads up and its a heavier car." Because its only heavier because it comes with all the fit and finish (gasp) that the GTR CAN NEVER HAVE!
I LOVE THE GTR! I DO!
But to say the GTM is a lesser car?
No. The GTM has everything the Ultima does and more, with more style, and a fifth the starting price shipped.
I feel a dead race between an LS7 GTR and GTM would show the gtr winning by a car lenghth on the quarter. BUT Thats because the GTM has a REAL INTERIOR and power windows....THAT DO NOT have to be added, (if you want to save the weight) power windows the GTR can never have. The weight stats for the GTM are for it having EVERY amenity. AND TONS AND TONS of sound deadening materials you dont have to install.
And the guy will drive away with a full bank account.
You guys wish for GTR's all you want. I will own a GTM. And I will do it cost effectivly.
I'll buy the kit and all upgrades.......................20k
I'll have an LS engine built to take a supercharger......8K
Supercharger.............................................7k
Ill have a 6 speed transaxle strengthened ...............6k
Buy all NEW parts instead of a wrecked vette
Race VETTE suspension.....................................6k
Fuel safe fuel tank................................I dunno K
Paint job.................................................6k
random other stuff........................................3k
Race wheels...............................................4K
Race brakes ..............................................6k
Race seats, suede interior, pop out dvd, stereo system....10k
Now I think I overestimated a few to be safe but thats for ONLY
top of the line parts.
80 K for ALL the best stuff PERIOD to make 700 hp show winning GTM.
And Im just gonna build a basic with a supercharger...
OR if you went for race only drop 250 pounds in interior, ac, stereo and glass for FAL windows.
GTR
Ugly costly ten year old that has a TIGHT cockpit and thats is horrible to get in and out of.
Or GTM
beautifull, FULLY APPOINTED, supercar that has an easy egress and comfy interior to do all the same the GTR does....but with style.
but yeah like for the 50-60 k I save I cant afford to replace the shocks.....right
IF the GTM were built by Ultima and they charged a GTR's price you guys would wet yourselves to buy them, raving about finaly having room, looks and power amenities.
The GTM is to the GTR.
as the new Europa is to the Elise...PERIOD
If you want to talk weight and cry over the hundred pounds the REAL interior and power windows of the gtm add then get a lotus 7 kit....and goggles.
Come to think of it how can you even talk about the level of fit and finish of the GTR when its interior is so cheap, and cramped?
BUT, the C5 Corvettes suspension is forged aluminum it already rocks.
And dont say it costs 80k to build a GTM. FFR Built thiers with a new GT3 transaxle, A new LS7 and a $7000 paintjob all for well under 60k.
THEY ALREADY BUILT ONE FOR UNDER 62k
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Red LS7 GTM Build Cost Sheet
Kit Price:
Base kit price $19,900
Air Conditioning $1,500
Seat track $69
Donor Corvette:
1999 fixed roof Corvette 18,000 miles $8,500
Replacement radiator $160
Replacement hood hinge $79
Drivetrain:
2006 LS7 Crate engine $13,000
Stand alone engine harness/computer $1,500
2003 Porsche GT3 transaxle $4,500
Heavy duty clutch $600
Starter $450
CV joints $80
Porsche shift mechanism $160
Dry Sump Tank $380
Mufflers $320
Exterior:
Paint Job $7,000
Wheels $2,200
Tires $920
Interior:
Stereo $280
Speakers $135
Total: $61,733
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
THATS WITH A 7K PAINT JOB!
Have you looked at the GTM pictures that have been posted IN THIS THREAD???
That is NOT a shabby car. Its gorgeous. Like many have said the bastard child of a Ferrari and a GT40.
The Ultima is amazingly overpriced!
ITS CRAMPED.
Its interior is NON EXISTANT!
And you guys say all those things can be installed in the interior....no...you cant....the Ultima doesnt have such fit and finish as POWER WINDOWS....hell it doesnt even have roll down windows AT ALL. The GTM comes with all those yumies.
The GTM is more streetable.
The GTM Does cost half as much to finish with comperable performance.
The GTM is more comfortable with a finished interior and roominess.
The GTM's only real foible is that weighs a measly hundred pounds more and thats because it has POWER WINDOWS and a real interior. You can cut the fripperies out , heaters, ac, moving side windows if you want and drop two hundred pounds.
The only thing you can REALLY say is that the GTR has a bespoke suspension.
Well the Corvette has an AMAZING aftermarket for bespoke one off suspension.
For the cost of The Ultima GTR I can build a GTM to be MUCH faster.
And it will look better doing it.
PERIOD!
You want to talk about winning races, and that the GTM is "a bigger heavier car"
Dude its ONE hundred pounds and thats because the GTM HAS AMENITIES. Like a roomy comfortable cockpit with REAL WORKING POWER WINDOWS!
Why do I repeat myself? Cause Im gonna have to.
You guys are in serious denial if you think the GTR is better.
The GTM is better looking.
The GTM is far more comfortable.
The GTM IS actualy more finished. you dont HAVE to use the original suspension. For the cash savings your could have a bespoke suspension forged out of gold.
Both cars are 95% bespoke custom dont harang me over the suspension as your one clarion call. The HUGE amount of money saved will allow the GTM builder to have custom forgings made out of titanium.
And as for the "all you'll ever be is a passenger in a GTR" Maybe.
But not because I cant afford one. Im not rich but Ive NEVER had to worry about money. And you know what? I dont have anything as cool as a GTR or GTM YET.... but with the income I have It will NOT be long.
I currently drive a 01 Camaro and fell for the GTR AND GTM amongst other reasons because Ide have TWO LS powered cars.
I have ALWAYS been a fan of the GTR. I wanted the spyder forever. (because it gets rid of that stupid bubble cockpit.) And always felt Ide get one if they were
more attractive from the front.
OH AND YES I KNOW ...NO ONE WILL EVER SEE THE FRONT.(wich is why the GTR's rear flanks ARE GORGEOUS.
YES I ADMIT IT!
And yes STOCK with the SAME running gear IM SURE The GTR will win. On the track.
But my point is while the GTM will be a half second behind. The driver can stretch out, cock a jaunty elbow OUT THE WINDOW and use the TENS of THOUSANDS he saved to drown his sorrows and build another.
You see you guys. You cant say. "oh well. in the GTM would lose heads up and its a heavier car." Because its only heavier because it comes with all the fit and finish (gasp) that the GTR CAN NEVER HAVE!
I LOVE THE GTR! I DO!
But to say the GTM is a lesser car?
No. The GTM has everything the Ultima does and more, with more style, and a fifth the starting price shipped.
I feel a dead race between an LS7 GTR and GTM would show the gtr winning by a car lenghth on the quarter. BUT Thats because the GTM has a REAL INTERIOR and power windows....THAT DO NOT have to be added, (if you want to save the weight) power windows the GTR can never have. The weight stats for the GTM are for it having EVERY amenity. AND TONS AND TONS of sound deadening materials you dont have to install.
And the guy will drive away with a full bank account.
You guys wish for GTR's all you want. I will own a GTM. And I will do it cost effectivly.
I'll buy the kit and all upgrades.......................20k
I'll have an LS engine built to take a supercharger......8K
Supercharger.............................................7k
Ill have a 6 speed transaxle strengthened ...............6k
Buy all NEW parts instead of a wrecked vette
Race VETTE suspension.....................................6k
Fuel safe fuel tank................................I dunno K
Paint job.................................................6k
random other stuff........................................3k
Race wheels...............................................4K
Race brakes ..............................................6k
Race seats, suede interior, pop out dvd, stereo system....10k
Now I think I overestimated a few to be safe but thats for ONLY
top of the line parts.
80 K for ALL the best stuff PERIOD to make 700 hp show winning GTM.
And Im just gonna build a basic with a supercharger...
OR if you went for race only drop 250 pounds in interior, ac, stereo and glass for FAL windows.
GTR
Ugly costly ten year old that has a TIGHT cockpit and thats is horrible to get in and out of.
Or GTM
beautifull, FULLY APPOINTED, supercar that has an easy egress and comfy interior to do all the same the GTR does....but with style.
but yeah like for the 50-60 k I save I cant afford to replace the shocks.....right
IF the GTM were built by Ultima and they charged a GTR's price you guys would wet yourselves to buy them, raving about finaly having room, looks and power amenities.
The GTM is to the GTR.
as the new Europa is to the Elise...PERIOD
If you want to talk weight and cry over the hundred pounds the REAL interior and power windows of the gtm add then get a lotus 7 kit....and goggles.
Come to think of it how can you even talk about the level of fit and finish of the GTR when its interior is so cheap, and cramped?
Edited by Hurricane Tiger on Friday 9th November 23:39
San Diego GTR said:
Wow, this has gotten heated. I need my popcorn.
Hey guys I'm building a (LS7/CMS G50-52) GTR. So there is my bias. But I have 2 really good friends that are building GTM's. They are both great builders and will have really great cars when they are done. One is using a LS6 Z06 donor motor and a CMS G50-03. The other is using a LS2 with some mild upgrades and is considering a Mandiola transaxle. The LS6 build is going all donor, stock parts. He estimates the cost will be about $55 when done. The other guy will build a highly customized GTM and his cost is unknown at this time. I will certainly have more money invested in my GTR when I'm done ($75-80). To me, it is all worth it. For others, it wouldn't be. I don't think I could drive a GTM for all its worth and certainly won't be able to drive my GTR for all its worth.
Styling is each persons own opinion. If cost & comfort are an issue, go with the GTM. If heritage and performance are more important, it comes at a cost. The GTR has been produced since 1983 and has multiple world records proving its abilities. Argue all you want about performance, but your rant means nothing unless you happen to beat one of the records. Talk is cheap. Show us the money....
We each get to make our own choice and nobody is going to write something here that will change another mans opinion.
More popcorn please...
Paul
I LIKE YOU!Hey guys I'm building a (LS7/CMS G50-52) GTR. So there is my bias. But I have 2 really good friends that are building GTM's. They are both great builders and will have really great cars when they are done. One is using a LS6 Z06 donor motor and a CMS G50-03. The other is using a LS2 with some mild upgrades and is considering a Mandiola transaxle. The LS6 build is going all donor, stock parts. He estimates the cost will be about $55 when done. The other guy will build a highly customized GTM and his cost is unknown at this time. I will certainly have more money invested in my GTR when I'm done ($75-80). To me, it is all worth it. For others, it wouldn't be. I don't think I could drive a GTM for all its worth and certainly won't be able to drive my GTR for all its worth.
Styling is each persons own opinion. If cost & comfort are an issue, go with the GTM. If heritage and performance are more important, it comes at a cost. The GTR has been produced since 1983 and has multiple world records proving its abilities. Argue all you want about performance, but your rant means nothing unless you happen to beat one of the records. Talk is cheap. Show us the money....
We each get to make our own choice and nobody is going to write something here that will change another mans opinion.
More popcorn please...
Paul
andygtt said:
Hurricane Tiger said:
Are you guy insane?
Firstly the the F1 programme purchased 2 Ultima kits, Ultimas had already been around for a while and have been progressivelly developed for the last 15years or so and the GTR is the latest model as a result of that development.
Secondly I can't ever remember rubbing or bumping again the passeneger, ever!
Finally I built my Ultima for around $90k so were you think the $80k saving is just beggers beleif.... or just plain ignorance.
Now I quite like the GTM and I do see it as cheaper competition to the Ultima but it doesn't need people speading stupid statements like this that are simply wrong.
Well then I do appologise. I do find it remarkable that youve NEVER rubbed the passenger or bumped them in a car that has seats that touch like siamese twins.Firstly the the F1 programme purchased 2 Ultima kits, Ultimas had already been around for a while and have been progressivelly developed for the last 15years or so and the GTR is the latest model as a result of that development.
Secondly I can't ever remember rubbing or bumping again the passeneger, ever!
Finally I built my Ultima for around $90k so were you think the $80k saving is just beggers beleif.... or just plain ignorance.
Now I quite like the GTM and I do see it as cheaper competition to the Ultima but it doesn't need people speading stupid statements like this that are simply wrong.
I just got all up in arms when all the lame ass statements about weight and fit and finish were thrown around. Factory 5 has exemplory fit and finish. And most GTR's Ive seen claim 100-140k build costs.
Some websites stated as I quoted in my original text that the car was 100,300 withou engine. I guess I may have been mislead by car and drivers site...or was it road and track? I think it was a C&D site...
Edited by Hurricane Tiger on Friday 9th November 23:24
BUILDER SAID....
There’s my cursory summary of GTM vs. GTR. Is it worth the money? Probably. Had I not known about the GTR, I very well may have gone with the GTM. The GTR looks more like a race car to me, and it outperforms the GTM. So, for me, the GTR is a better choice. And that’s what it’s all about…
[/quote]
BY 100 POUNDS!!! and THATS because the GTM has a FULL interior figured into the weight and POWER glass windows.
You made EXTREMELY valid points. But dont forget the GTM is roomier, more comfy and has ammenities you cant even put on a GTR!
If you built the GTM with lexan side windows a and a stripped interior like the GTR then they'd be neck and neck or the GTM would be lighter.
And you are REALLLLLLY arguing symantics if your going to harp on the contract clause.
THAT was put in so that if they engineered the car to be able to take additional Transaxle or Engines they could. That is a safety clause for if they can improve the GTM in some considerable way.
Thats the entire difference between the mk2 and mk3 roadtsters. The mark three came out when they made it so you HAD THE ADDITIONAL CHOICE that you could drop a big block in.
Symantics is just silly.
when it comes to the performance difference its all in the GTM's ammenities and power windows you dont have to install.
And the clause is for when they change and UPGRADE the car.
There’s my cursory summary of GTM vs. GTR. Is it worth the money? Probably. Had I not known about the GTR, I very well may have gone with the GTM. The GTR looks more like a race car to me, and it outperforms the GTM. So, for me, the GTR is a better choice. And that’s what it’s all about…
[/quote]
BY 100 POUNDS!!! and THATS because the GTM has a FULL interior figured into the weight and POWER glass windows.
You made EXTREMELY valid points. But dont forget the GTM is roomier, more comfy and has ammenities you cant even put on a GTR!
If you built the GTM with lexan side windows a and a stripped interior like the GTR then they'd be neck and neck or the GTM would be lighter.
And you are REALLLLLLY arguing symantics if your going to harp on the contract clause.
THAT was put in so that if they engineered the car to be able to take additional Transaxle or Engines they could. That is a safety clause for if they can improve the GTM in some considerable way.
Thats the entire difference between the mk2 and mk3 roadtsters. The mark three came out when they made it so you HAD THE ADDITIONAL CHOICE that you could drop a big block in.
Symantics is just silly.
when it comes to the performance difference its all in the GTM's ammenities and power windows you dont have to install.
And the clause is for when they change and UPGRADE the car.
Edited by Hurricane Tiger on Friday 9th November 23:54
And PS:
Urgh..this is ugly:
And jeez....look at the chaffin' on these shoulders:
and as for that interior.....where's the sick bucket???
And all that for £55K.....that's about $200K at todays rate I fink.....
Show us yours then Tiger.
PPS. I like the look the GTM is going for. Unfortunately for me, it never got there. (See Mosler/Saleen/Ascari etc.)
The Ultima is an example of FFF......Form Follows Function. No wasted pen stokes, fibre glass or steel, no added fluff. It's raw.
Take it or leave it.
You choose to leave it. Let's leave it at that.
Lucky
Urgh..this is ugly:
And jeez....look at the chaffin' on these shoulders:
and as for that interior.....where's the sick bucket???
And all that for £55K.....that's about $200K at todays rate I fink.....
Show us yours then Tiger.
PPS. I like the look the GTM is going for. Unfortunately for me, it never got there. (See Mosler/Saleen/Ascari etc.)
The Ultima is an example of FFF......Form Follows Function. No wasted pen stokes, fibre glass or steel, no added fluff. It's raw.
Take it or leave it.
You choose to leave it. Let's leave it at that.
Lucky
Tiger,
Do you own a GTM?
Have you ever been in a GTM?
Have you ever been in a GTR?
I'll put money on NO to all 3.
Your posts have all the earmarks of a wannabe.
I saw a GTM in the flesh at Hot Rod Power Tour - It didnt really do it for me. It was also quite rough - but this was an early car and I am sure FFR will fix the bugs. Its a good car for the money - but not for me.
Do you own a GTM?
Have you ever been in a GTM?
Have you ever been in a GTR?
I'll put money on NO to all 3.
Your posts have all the earmarks of a wannabe.
I saw a GTM in the flesh at Hot Rod Power Tour - It didnt really do it for me. It was also quite rough - but this was an early car and I am sure FFR will fix the bugs. Its a good car for the money - but not for me.
Tiger. Look, do your homework before you post... especially if you are going to use the word 'FACT' in caplitals. Fact is in the UK most Ultimas are built for under £50k, thats $100k with the current rubbish $.
It's fairly clear that you have never seen an Ultima in the flesh let along sat or driven in one. You may well think the GTM is great and better than an Ultima and in some areas for some people you may be right...
Go ahead and put your order in for the GTM without doing proper research, it sounds like you will be over the moon with it and I wish you luck.
It's fairly clear that you have never seen an Ultima in the flesh let along sat or driven in one. You may well think the GTM is great and better than an Ultima and in some areas for some people you may be right...
Go ahead and put your order in for the GTM without doing proper research, it sounds like you will be over the moon with it and I wish you luck.
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