More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

Lucid_AV said:

Are you saying that you don't understand how one person can hear a difference with a piece of equipment, but another can't?

Incidentally, have you ever listened in a demo situation to various power leads?

Edited by Lucid_AV on Friday 13th August 02:38

From my posts we can deduce that most here wouldn’t go to a demo because any differences in power leads are imagined. Of course, what we have here is the naysayers shouting loudest and only a couple of people saying that they’re at least worth a listen.

You guys are talking such feeble ste.

[Gary C]

Lucid_AV said:

To any of you who have your doubts about mains cables, equipment stands, types of cartridge, room acoustics or anything else where it seems to be pushing the limits of absurdity, maybe remember that in a lot of cases these were mad ideas and the science to explain some of it came along much much later. Tannoy had been making speakers since the mid 1920s. Some of its most revered designs such as the Monitor Golds came from the 60s when pipe-smoking blokes with names such as Bert, Fred and Albert had some crazy ideas about trying different materials and techniques when the science of the day couldn't explain why there might be a difference. Now we have CADCAM and laser interferometry to make speakers where we understand and can model whats going on as the driver plays and the cabinet flexes. All it took was a few decades for the science to catch up with the mad ideas men.

Should any of you feel brave enough to try it, and Stockport is within your travel range, I could arrange a day with a friendly dealer so you can see for yourself where your limits of hearing sit.

Now, some of the stuff you mention is of course valid acoustic engineering, different acoustic enclosures, more stable DAC's, better recombination filters, PSU's with positive feedback control, less resonant tone arms were always backed by the 'science' even if the differences could be argued to be so small as to make no noticeable difference.

But a mains lead with a one way fuse (FFS, one way fuse, who thought of that bullst), transferring electrically noisy mains from a 13A socket from a domestic ringmain (itself a great source of pickup), via a three phase cable under the road from a local sub, miles of overhead aluminium lines, into a generator fed via a rectifier and exciter will MAKE NO DIFFERENCE !

[ATG]

Tony1963 said:

“ wasn't able to hear any difference”

And there you have it. You couldn’t hear the difference; you. Nobody else, and nobody else matters. If someone else can, then that’s all that matters to them.

All I’m saying is keep your mind and ears and eyes open. Keep it fun, enjoy the ride. If that results in you never hearing any differences caused by cables of any sort, enjoy being able to say that. If you end up spending an obscene amount on cables for what you perceive to be a tiny difference, great! Laugh at yourself, enjoy the music.

The whole bleeding point is that you only need one person who can be proved to be able to hear the difference in a properly conducted test (which is an easy thing to do) to prove that a cable makes a detectable difference.

The absence of anyone bothering to conduct these simple tests should tell you something.

[Tony1963]

Sporky said:

What if they heard a difference that wasn't there?

What if the test was rigged?

What if the difference they heard was down to the increased blood flow from getting up, rooting around behind the hifi changing the cable, and sitting back down (I've tested that one too, and it's real).

My view is that I can understand when a £20k CD player sounds better than a £200 one. My objection is reading reviews where a more expensive HDMI cable results in deeper blacks and better contrast - given that I know the details of HDMI transmission, and what actually happens if there is a single-bit error in that signal.

I mentioned a couple of pages ago that I can’t do tests where the item under test is swapped in and out too often. I use a CD I know well, and leave the item under test in the system for a few days at least. Then I reinstall the original item. And after a few days I ask myself which I preferred ‘if’ I could hear a difference. If someone is going to pressurise me into making a quick choice, they can take a hike.
However, I very rarely test anything. Five years ago was the last time, I think. My speakers were replaced because the old ones didn’t suit the new house, and they were ugly lol. No mistaking the improvements. I didn’t need to box swap at all.

[TonyRPH]

Tony1963 said:

“ wasn't able to hear any difference”

And there you have it. You couldn’t hear the difference; you. Nobody else, and nobody else matters. If someone else can, then that’s all that matters to them.

All I’m saying is keep your mind and ears and eyes open. Keep it fun, enjoy the ride. If that results in you never hearing any differences caused by cables of any sort, enjoy being able to say that. If you end up spending an obscene amount on cables for what you perceive to be a tiny difference, great! Laugh at yourself, enjoy the music.

As it happens - without explaining why, I got my (bat eared!!) wife to listen without explaining what I was doing or why to remove expectation bias as best I could.

She couldn't hear any difference either.

My part time musician son couldn't hear any difference either.

I admit that a sample of 3 is very small.

[Tony1963]

Musicians are very rarely bothered at all in my experience. Nothing comes close to the real thing, no matter what the hifi companies tell us.

[ATG]

Lucid_AV said:

To all you saying there's no difference with mains cables, or there's no scientific evidence, I would agree that on the first point it does sound implausible, and on the second point I would ask you if there's any solid scientific measurement-based evidence for the difference between capacitors of the same value?

You're demonstrating a perfectly understandable position of total ignorance of electronics. Most people don't know anything about electronics; that's absolutely fine. There are any number of subjects about which most of us know bugger all.

Mains wires design and behaviour is utterly trivial. Capacitor design and behaviour is not. Pretty much day 1 discussion about capacitors is how real capacitors' behaviour differs (often quite radically) from how a theoretical, ideal capacitor would behave. If it is of any interest to you, you could look up the differences between electrolytic capacitors and ceramic capacitors. The former offer far higher capacitance for their size, but have very, very much less "ideal" behaviour than the latter. You design your circuit with regard to the type of capacitors you're going to use and try to take into account as many of their real world characteristics as you can or need to for the application.

Is there solid scientific evidence for this? Yes, reams and reams of it. There's nothing surprising about the divergence from the "ideal" and the information is provided in the data sheets manufactures use to describe their products. Here's an example: https://docs.rs-online.com/da07/0900766b800274c4.p...

Edited by ATG on Friday 13th August 11:53

[Sporky]

Tony1963 said:

However, I very rarely test anything. Five years ago was the last time, I think. My speakers were replaced because the old ones didn’t suit the new house, and they were ugly lol. No mistaking the improvements. I didn’t need to box swap at all.

I am absolutely fine with changes to speakers. I'm basically OK with the idea that different sources produce different outputs, mildly skeptical about amps (in the sense that any well designed amp should be capable of driving the load and should not impart any tonal changes, but I know that's not necessarily the case). Based on experience I am dismissive of cables making a difference (assuming they are of the correct gauge and shielding).

Then we hit the bit I would describe (possibly incorrectly) as audiophile bullhonky - mains cables, HDMI cables, ethernet cables, ethernet switches, little bags of crystals, tiny metal resonators on funky wooden bases, cable stands, and so on.

Hifi is awesome. £600 2m HDMI cables are nonsense.

[InductionRoar]

I have recently rekindled my interest in hi-fi by virtue of upgrading my headphones. The difference really is quite profound and constitutes a significant improvement to my ears and those of everybody who has listened to them back to back.

I like to think I am fairly cynical with regards to hi-fi 'upgrades' (Russ Andrews' product catalogue seems barely legal) but, as with most things and despite sound being the only important characteristic of a hi-fi and all things being equal, I prefer nicely finished/designed items over cheaply made ones.

A few examples:-

Upgraded the interconnect on my Naim system from the original Lavender to a used Hi-Line. This made a subtle but beneficial difference so I kept it in the system. For the price I paid I would have reclaimed any costs, and intended to do so if I heard no difference, but given the frankly ludicrous price of these now I would actually make money so I don't feel too aggrieved even if the difference is in my head.

I was loaned some fancy mains cables for a weekend home audition. Quite a few £££s worth and zero difference perceived. A complete waste of money IMO and I declined the dealer's kind offer.

Replacing of the cheap looking and extremely hot running 'Made in Taiwan' power supply, which was supplied with my headphone amp, to an 'Audiophile Linear Power Supply' . Seems to take less time to warm the amp up now but not the night and day difference that other reviewers experience (surprise, surprise). It adds a bit of extra convenience in operation, allows a tidier arrangement behind my hi-fi rack and my perception is that it sounds better but I didn't go down the blind or double blind test route so hardly conclusive.

Hands down the biggest improvement I have detected on my speaker system was the addition of a 4.5' x 3.5' canvas behind my chair. Considering I was actively listening for sound differences with the interconnects, cables and PSU and only heard slight improvements yet I heard such a profound and unexpected improvement from the addition of the canvas says a lot. The irony being that the canvas was the most expensive upgrade to my system but wasn't made or purchased for that purpose.

My take away from my admittedly limited experience of hi-fi is that unless I had an acoustically optimised room I would only buy the entry level cable offerings from a 'reputable' hi-fi brand and use the manufacturer supplied power leads.

[Tony1963]

Isn’t it funny how EVERYONE accepts that someone loves their new speakers because, as you’d hope, they sound better, yet if that very same person changes something like a mains lead and declares that their system sounds better, they’re just plain wrong because there can’t be a difference, expectation bias, etc etc.


Funny ol world.

One little story from me that I think I mentioned a while ago. Over twenty years ago I tried a £2000 power supply on my CD player. I tried and tried and just couldn’t hear an improvement. I had the money available, wanted it to sell itself to me, and it didn’t. I also tried cable dressing, pre amp away from large toroidal transformers etc… no difference. Aaargh? Am I deaf?

Then when I bought the new speakers five years ago, I heard so much more of the music that I thought I’d try putting the pre amp away from the toroidals again. Bingo! Much better. So my old speakers were holding the rest of the system back, simple as that.

I once tried an upgraded interconnect, CD player to pre amp. Oh my word! So much more revealing! Harsh maybe, so I let it settle in. A mate was with me at every stage. Left the hifi alone for a few hours, went back and…. It had reverted to the old interconnect’s sound! Oh ffs, let’s take it back. But at least I have it a go.

Be careful!

[98elise]

Tony1963 said:

Isn’t it funny how EVERYONE accepts that someone loves their new speakers because, as you’d hope, they sound better, yet if that very same person changes something like a mains lead and declares that their system sounds better, they’re just plain wrong because there can’t be a difference, expectation bias, etc etc.


Funny ol world.

One little story from me that I think I mentioned a while ago. Over twenty years ago I tried a £2000 power supply on my CD player. I tried and tried and just couldn’t hear an improvement. I had the money available, wanted it to sell itself to me, and it didn’t. I also tried cable dressing, pre amp away from large toroidal transformers etc… no difference. Aaargh? Am I deaf?

Then when I bought the new speakers five years ago, I heard so much more of the music that I thought I’d try putting the pre amp away from the toroidals again. Bingo! Much better. So my old speakers were holding the rest of the system back, simple as that.

I once tried an upgraded interconnect, CD player to pre amp. Oh my word! So much more revealing! Harsh maybe, so I let it settle in. A mate was with me at every stage. Left the hifi alone for a few hours, went back and…. It had reverted to the old interconnect’s sound! Oh ffs, let’s take it back. But at least I have it a go.

Be careful!

Because one is designed to convert electricity in sound, and the other is designed to move mains electricity from the wall to the equipment.

Only one of those affects the sound.

[Dromedary66]

Tony1963 said:

Isn’t it funny how EVERYONE accepts that someone loves their new speakers because, as you’d hope, they sound better, yet if that very same person changes something like a mains lead and declares that their system sounds better, they’re just plain wrong because there can’t be a difference, expectation bias, etc etc.


Funny ol world.

One little story from me that I think I mentioned a while ago. Over twenty years ago I tried a £2000 power supply on my CD player. I tried and tried and just couldn’t hear an improvement. I had the money available, wanted it to sell itself to me, and it didn’t. I also tried cable dressing, pre amp away from large toroidal transformers etc… no difference. Aaargh? Am I deaf?

Then when I bought the new speakers five years ago, I heard so much more of the music that I thought I’d try putting the pre amp away from the toroidals again. Bingo! Much better. So my old speakers were holding the rest of the system back, simple as that.

I once tried an upgraded interconnect, CD player to pre amp. Oh my word! So much more revealing! Harsh maybe, so I let it settle in. A mate was with me at every stage. Left the hifi alone for a few hours, went back and…. It had reverted to the old interconnect’s sound! Oh ffs, let’s take it back. But at least I have it a go.

Be careful!

I love it when we get a live one in this thread.

[Tony1963]

Dromedary66 said:

I love it when we get a live on in this thread.

A what?

[Gary C]

Tony1963 said:

Isn’t it funny how EVERYONE accepts that someone loves their new speakers because, as you’d hope, they sound better, yet if that very same person changes something like a mains lead and declares that their system sounds better, they’re just plain wrong because there can’t be a difference, expectation bias, etc etc.

Maybe because a speaker is a fundamental part of the dynamic sound creation. The mass and compliance of the air moving bit directly affects what you hear. The shape, material and compliance/absorption and floor mounting of the cabinet is fundamental to the sound. Valve amps sounded different to class A transistor amps because they have different linearity and microphony effects.

Whereas a mains cable just allows a few electrons to flow into the rectifier of the PSU.

They are worlds apart in their effect on the sound produced.

Which is why all the pseudo science crap is spouted on the websites, including one extraordinary claim that electrons don't travel at all !

[Tony1963]

“Including one extraordinary claim that electrons don't travel at all !”

I’ve asked an engineer about this, and it’s not as clear cut as I would like!

[Gary C]

Tony1963 said:

“Including one extraordinary claim that electrons don't travel at all !”

I’ve asked an engineer about this, and it’s not as clear cut as I would like!

Ask a physicist.

They do move (and yes they do, if they didn't, a transistor wouldn't work !) but not in the way a water flow model would suggest.

If you want further evidence of mains bullst, lets consider the uni-directional fuse, on an Alternating Current supply, WTF !

I mean, come on. Everyone must be able to see the claims that a fuse must be fitted the right way round are total bks ?

Passive Quantum Inductive Coupling ?

They have even made up their own new word " directionailiuty "

Edited by Gary C on Friday 13th August 14:59

[Tony1963]

I didn’t really respond to the fuse thing because companies like Russ Andrews have been selling them for years, and nobody I know has tried them or even thought about it. I don’t buy hifi mags, I think I stopped that silliness in 2001.

[Lucid_AV]

Gary C said:

Now, some of the stuff you mention is of course valid acoustic engineering, different acoustic enclosures, more stable DAC's, better recombination filters, PSU's with positive feedback control, less resonant tone arms were always backed by the 'science' even if the differences could be argued to be so small as to make no noticeable difference.

But a mains lead with a one way fuse (FFS, one way fuse, who thought of that bullst), transferring electrically noisy mains from a 13A socket from a domestic ringmain (itself a great source of pickup), via a three phase cable under the road from a local sub, miles of overhead aluminium lines, into a generator fed via a rectifier and exciter will MAKE NO DIFFERENCE !

But have you sat down and had a listen yourself?

You see, there's a whole group of people saying that they believe it can't possibly make a difference. Then there's a whole other group saying that in their experience that they think it does. Somewhere in the middle, there's yet another group who say they've tried it and couldn't hear a difference.

Of all three groups, the only ones who appear to be adamant that they're right seems to be the naysayers; but this is not their own experience. It's often James Randii / double-blind / ABX / 'the science' yadda yadda yadda, but frequently this is second-hand information that has been read somewhere.

The argument goes that the double-blind ABX tests are infallible. Sure, take a fish out of water, stick it in a maze and watch it fail. Yet if anyone dares say that they had a listen and thought it sounded better, then the test must be rigged.

In the end, who cares? Are they spending your money or mine? No. So what does it matter?

[Gary C]

Lucid_AV said:

So what does it matter?

Some criminals are ripping weak minded people off for huge sums of money.

Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.

But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?

[Tony1963]

Gary C said:

Some criminals are ripping weak minded people off for huge sums of money.

Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.

But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?

Blimey. You’re making some assumptions there.

Are you a self-made multi-millionaire?