More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
Tony1963 said:
“Including one extraordinary claim that electrons don't travel at all !”
I’ve asked an engineer about this, and it’s not as clear cut as I would like!
That's because it's a complex subject.I’ve asked an engineer about this, and it’s not as clear cut as I would like!
Electron flow (or more properly drift velocity) is very, very slow indeed - there's a typical sample calculation on the Wikipedia page which comes out to 23 μm/s (roughly 20cm a year I think). Signal flow on the other hand is very fast; typically on the order of half the speed of light, or about 150,000km per second (hopefully I've not missed or added a zero there). The signal is carried in an electromagnetic field which (in simple terms) is radiated by the electrons as a result of the signal being applied to the conductor and dielectric. The signal is therefore a fluctuation in an electromagnetic field, which is guided by the cable. It is not a consequence of electrons zooming along the bit of copper.
Appropriate apologies for the various simplifications and abstractions.
Shorter answer is that they do travel, but for mains and audio type stuff the distance they travel is so small that it can be disregarded for most practical purposes.
Lucid_AV said:
Of all three groups, the only ones who appear to be adamant that they're right seems to be the naysayers; but this is not their own experience.
It certainly is my own experience as I said - I have run and participated in a significant number of listening tests and shoot-outs. My experience - unsurprisingly - matches what the physics and psychology sides predict.
Tony1963 said:
^ thank you.
Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
In what way does it do that? Because the way I read it, his contribution reinforces the argument that the last metre of cable cannot possibly make a difference...Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
Of course it doesn't matter how much you spend on leads, isolation cages and equipment - the two receivers on the side of your head and their signal processing capabilities are what will really drive your enjoyment of your audio equipment.
So who is with me in designing some headgear for the true audiophile - I'm thinking of only using the purest quartz tracers to align your audio canals and a platinum mesh for sympathetic neuron signal guidance?
Kick starter anyone?
So who is with me in designing some headgear for the true audiophile - I'm thinking of only using the purest quartz tracers to align your audio canals and a platinum mesh for sympathetic neuron signal guidance?
Kick starter anyone?
Having worked in high end audio for 30 years, I can honestly say I have never encountered anyone in the industry who gives credence to mains leads or fuses having a clearly identifiable effect on sound quality.
I have travelled the UK and Europe visiting manufacturers and exhibitions and have yet to encounter anyone trying to sell overpriced fuses, cables or connectors to the pro industry.
First thing anyone would say is can I hear it? Give me a demo. Doesn’t happen at the pro end.
Companies such as Studer and Solid State Logic, who build top end mixing consoles, are happy to provide a standard mains lead with their products. Despite each spending £100k’s + on R&D neither has identified the mains cable as a key component. Both could sell branded heavily marked up cables. They don’t. They know their market and customer base don’t buy into these theories.
Never have I had a manufacturer demonstration where I’ve been told the mains cable, internal or external was anything special. It’s always about the product not how it’s powered.
Closest I encountered was a hi fi speaker / amp retailer who wanted to demo their product. Having carefully set it up with directional speaker cables etc they needed an unbalanced (phono) audio feed. They were baffled when we provided them a balanced feed as that’s what pro kit uses. Having eventually got them working they were barely adequate.
But there is a world of difference between the kit used to make the recording and that typically used to listen to it. Yet somehow, the most insignificant piece of the repro chain has a huge effect? Why can’t the pro manufacturers just use it at the recording end instead?
I did once spend a very interesting evening at a top-end hi fi manufacturers (now defunct) listening session in which some blind A/B testing done with about 30 volunteers- a mix of customers and industry professionals.
The test was carefully setup to compare interconnects in one session and amplifiers in a second session.
Levels were matched to less than 0.1db and a passive relay switchbox used, which was carefully designed to have the same relay clicks for A & B. Each test was a 30? Second piece of music (repeated) first ‘A’ then ‘B’ then ‘X’ ten times.
The person conducting the test had no idea what X was - it was predetermined and they had no indication.
What was interesting was how easy it was to think you could hear a difference only to realise on the next A/B/X that it wasn’t as clear cut as you thought initially. I went into it with hopefully an open mind.
Many people were convinced they had identified it all correctly. Nobody did.
The manufacturer concentrated their efforts elsewhere in marketing and design but credit to them for setting up a decent test.
I have travelled the UK and Europe visiting manufacturers and exhibitions and have yet to encounter anyone trying to sell overpriced fuses, cables or connectors to the pro industry.
First thing anyone would say is can I hear it? Give me a demo. Doesn’t happen at the pro end.
Companies such as Studer and Solid State Logic, who build top end mixing consoles, are happy to provide a standard mains lead with their products. Despite each spending £100k’s + on R&D neither has identified the mains cable as a key component. Both could sell branded heavily marked up cables. They don’t. They know their market and customer base don’t buy into these theories.
Never have I had a manufacturer demonstration where I’ve been told the mains cable, internal or external was anything special. It’s always about the product not how it’s powered.
Closest I encountered was a hi fi speaker / amp retailer who wanted to demo their product. Having carefully set it up with directional speaker cables etc they needed an unbalanced (phono) audio feed. They were baffled when we provided them a balanced feed as that’s what pro kit uses. Having eventually got them working they were barely adequate.
But there is a world of difference between the kit used to make the recording and that typically used to listen to it. Yet somehow, the most insignificant piece of the repro chain has a huge effect? Why can’t the pro manufacturers just use it at the recording end instead?
I did once spend a very interesting evening at a top-end hi fi manufacturers (now defunct) listening session in which some blind A/B testing done with about 30 volunteers- a mix of customers and industry professionals.
The test was carefully setup to compare interconnects in one session and amplifiers in a second session.
Levels were matched to less than 0.1db and a passive relay switchbox used, which was carefully designed to have the same relay clicks for A & B. Each test was a 30? Second piece of music (repeated) first ‘A’ then ‘B’ then ‘X’ ten times.
The person conducting the test had no idea what X was - it was predetermined and they had no indication.
What was interesting was how easy it was to think you could hear a difference only to realise on the next A/B/X that it wasn’t as clear cut as you thought initially. I went into it with hopefully an open mind.
Many people were convinced they had identified it all correctly. Nobody did.
The manufacturer concentrated their efforts elsewhere in marketing and design but credit to them for setting up a decent test.
TonyRPH said:
Tony1963 said:
^ thank you.
Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
In what way does it do that? Because the way I read it, his contribution reinforces the argument that the last metre of cable cannot possibly make a difference...Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
Seriously, my point was that the fuse maker claimed that electrons do not move AT ALL (quote "so too does electricity ‘move’ without electrons ever leaving their atoms"), and thus shows a lack of understanding of the basic physics, so how can they then claim they have discovered "Inductive Quantum Coupling methods" when they don't understand basic physics ?
I'll tell you how, because they are lying.
Tony1963 said:
Gary C said:
Some criminals are ripping weak minded people off for huge sums of money.
Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
Blimey. You’re making some assumptions there. Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
Are you a self-made multi-millionaire?
Yes I am making an assumption in that I assume that the people who are selling the really outrageous stuff, know full well its b
ks. Tony1963 said:
^ thank you.
Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
I don't see how. Remember that mains is not a signal, it is power transfer.Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
Provided what arrives at the inlet on the amplifier (or other component) is somewhere around 200-250V AC, and somewhere around 40-70Hz, the output of the power input stage of that component will be smooth, ripple-free DC at the required voltage for the rest of the system. In engineering terms that's a trivial task. Maybe a fridge compressor starting on the same circuit might cause a little pop, but a fancy mains cable isn't going to do anything about that.
Apologies if I've posted this before, but some years ago I used to design, build, and sell guitar pedals. Some of them went to people you might even have heard. As part of that I had a little power supply module; it took in anything from about 7v to about 50v, AC or DC (either polarity), and output 15v DC. I did a lot of testing with it; you could add stupid amounts of noise to it, you could even disconnect the power for a second or two, and the output was absolutely rock solid, with ripple that wasn't measurable on my 'scope. That little module had about £4 of components, and took up about 2cm x 2cm of PCB space. It wasn't even very clever - all cookbook stuff. If I could do that from my spare bedroom, the idea that someone who designed power sections of hifi kit for a living couldn't do the same for an amp is ridiculous. Even if that last metre of mains cable removed all the mains-borne noise it wouldn't make any difference. Even if it added a load of noise it wouldn't make any difference.
Tony1963 said:
TonyRPH said:
I've tried tests using a high end DAC as the source along with a high end headphone amplifier and headphones and I wasn't able to hear any difference.
Headphones are best for this test scenario, as using headphones rules out any room effects.
I've lost count of the amount of listening tests I've read about where the contributors claim to hear differences between cables etc. and they are failing to take into account that they are changing the listening environment simply by moving position in the room to change out the cables (not to mention moving the gear they are listening to).
Finally - regarding the old "system capable of showing if there is any difference" comment - a $25k Audio Precision analyser will quickly reveal any differences.
And before you argue that "we're measuring the wrong things" blah blah - well frankly that's just nonsense.
NULL tests have also proven that all cables are equal.
“ wasn't able to hear any difference”Headphones are best for this test scenario, as using headphones rules out any room effects.
I've lost count of the amount of listening tests I've read about where the contributors claim to hear differences between cables etc. and they are failing to take into account that they are changing the listening environment simply by moving position in the room to change out the cables (not to mention moving the gear they are listening to).
Finally - regarding the old "system capable of showing if there is any difference" comment - a $25k Audio Precision analyser will quickly reveal any differences.
And before you argue that "we're measuring the wrong things" blah blah - well frankly that's just nonsense.
NULL tests have also proven that all cables are equal.
And there you have it. You couldn’t hear the difference; you. Nobody else, and nobody else matters. If someone else can, then that’s all that matters to them.
All I’m saying is keep your mind and ears and eyes open. Keep it fun, enjoy the ride. If that results in you never hearing any differences caused by cables of any sort, enjoy being able to say that. If you end up spending an obscene amount on cables for what you perceive to be a tiny difference, great! Laugh at yourself, enjoy the music.
Some of the arguments running on this thread are getting close to those trying to use logic on religion...
Engineer / Heretic / Industry Professional - "The effect you mention cannot exist due to physics."
Audiophile / Believer / Salesman - "Have you done a blind test?"
A) No (whatever reason / evidence) - "Unbeliever! you cannot have an opinion - Effect exists"
B) i) Yes, can't hear the difference - "Your ears are no good - Effect exists"
B) ii) Yes, can hear the difference - "AHA! PROOF!! - Effect exists"
Believe what you like, buy whatever with your own money, but don't try convincing others that these products work in "ways that science cannot yet explain"
Engineer / Heretic / Industry Professional - "The effect you mention cannot exist due to physics."
Audiophile / Believer / Salesman - "Have you done a blind test?"
A) No (whatever reason / evidence) - "Unbeliever! you cannot have an opinion - Effect exists"
B) i) Yes, can't hear the difference - "Your ears are no good - Effect exists"
B) ii) Yes, can hear the difference - "AHA! PROOF!! - Effect exists"
Believe what you like, buy whatever with your own money, but don't try convincing others that these products work in "ways that science cannot yet explain"
Gary C said:
Some criminals are ripping weak minded people off for huge sums of money.
Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
Oh no! Ring the police. Someone smart enough to have amassed £20,000 as spending cash might be making a questionable purchasing decision in the context of a system priced anywhere between the equivalent of a luxury car to the average UK house price. Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
We must protect these vulnerable people.
Forget all the thousands of OAPs getting ripped off for a couple of grand which is all they have in savings. Never mind about the younger generations having their bank cards clone. What we really must do is shield the very wealthy. Yes, that's far more important, I am sure.
LMAO
Lucid_AV said:
Gary C said:
Some criminals are ripping weak minded people off for huge sums of money.
Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
Oh no! Ring the police. Someone smart enough to have amassed £20,000 as spending cash might be making a questionable purchasing decision in the context of a system priced anywhere between the equivalent of a luxury car to the average UK house price. Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the hifi stuff with some basis in reality, with vanishingly small improvements for exponentially increasing costs, fine.
But quantum tunnelling fuses and £20K kettle leads ?
We must protect these vulnerable people.
Forget all the thousands of OAPs getting ripped off for a couple of grand which is all they have in savings. Never mind about the younger generations having their bank cards clone. What we really must do is shield the very wealthy. Yes, that's far more important, I am sure.
LMAO
So you think its fine then, or do you believe the outlandish claims ?
Sporky said:
Tony1963 said:
^ thank you.
Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
I don't see how. Remember that mains is not a signal, it is power transfer.Sort of takes the wind out of the argument that the last metre of cable can’t possible make a difference?
Provided what arrives at the inlet on the amplifier (or other component) is somewhere around 200-250V AC, and somewhere around 40-70Hz, the output of the power input stage of that component will be smooth, ripple-free DC at the required voltage for the rest of the system. In engineering terms that's a trivial task. Maybe a fridge compressor starting on the same circuit might cause a little pop, but a fancy mains cable isn't going to do anything about that.
Apologies if I've posted this before, but some years ago I used to design, build, and sell guitar pedals. Some of them went to people you might even have heard. As part of that I had a little power supply module; it took in anything from about 7v to about 50v, AC or DC (either polarity), and output 15v DC. I did a lot of testing with it; you could add stupid amounts of noise to it, you could even disconnect the power for a second or two, and the output was absolutely rock solid, with ripple that wasn't measurable on my 'scope. That little module had about £4 of components, and took up about 2cm x 2cm of PCB space. It wasn't even very clever - all cookbook stuff. If I could do that from my spare bedroom, the idea that someone who designed power sections of hifi kit for a living couldn't do the same for an amp is ridiculous. Even if that last metre of mains cable removed all the mains-borne noise it wouldn't make any difference. Even if it added a load of noise it wouldn't make any difference.
Tony1963 said:
Has science even tried? And I don’t mean testing just plain IEC leads with standard bits n bobs, I mean leads like the Naim Powerline. I doubt many scientists are even aware of them.
Side note: Brian Cox has a wee Naim system.
Audioholics do cable testing, they majorly uspet a manufacturer because they used a scientific approach Side note: Brian Cox has a wee Naim system.
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