Power cables (for amp)

[Tony1963]

deckster said:

Wow. I can think of absolutely no reason why Naim would sell these. Nosiree, no idea.

I get the "It's my money and I think it sounds better" argument, and I really am not telling anybody how to spend their own money. But without reliable, consistent, repeatable double-blind tests it's not even subjective: it's just snake oil sold at quite astonishing mark-ups by shysters that are completely unable to back up their claims with either empiric evidence or scientific reasoning.

You’re making assumptions about some very intelligent people. One of them is a REME engineering officer, a Lt Col. He DID NOT want certain items in the power supply to make his system sound better, but they did. He already has a recently built listening room with its own ring main. He’s no mug, and with two young children he’s not in the habit of wasting money.
The other made his money in the medical world. He was at the forefront of the manufacture of prosthetic limbs, mainly for land mine victims. Now retired, he has plenty of time to consider his purchases. He doesn’t buy magazines, keeps forums at arm’s reach, and is nobody’s fool. Again, he doesn’t waste money. He has been ‘into’ hifi since the early 70s, and has also been into cars, modifying etc.

But of course, someone else who can’t or won’t hear a difference is free to not buy these items. Just have a bit of respect for people who do because they can hear a difference. They’re definitely not imagining it.

[ian996]

Tony1963 said:

deckster said:

stuff

You’re making assumptions about some very intelligent people.

Well said Sir!

As a general comment, obsessing about sound quality to the nth degree is a very slightly geeky pursuit. Exploring the cutting edge of physics is also a slightly geeky pursuit. It's not a huge leap to postulate that some of those geeks working at the cutting edge of physics might also listen to music with a geeky level of attention to detail. They might even think "Some of this **** I'm doing within academic/military/medical research might make my HiFi sound better". Some of them might even start companies. The products they build might end up being fearsomely expensive, as they are heavily research led and would only ever sell to a very small market, but some of those products might actually work (although the science behind them might not be easily accessible to us mere intellectual mortals) .

I freely admit that I have spent a lot of money on audiophile tweaks that most would say cannot possibly have an audiable effect. On that journey, I have spoken to some fiendishly intelligent people (think Sheldon Cooper , albeit with slightly better social skills) One bloke had achieved a doctorate in Theoretical and Computational Quantum Physics, with a parallel MSc in Chemistry by the age of 21. (His co-directors added FEA and Atomic Scale Materials Design expertise). OK, so that example relates to my equipment supports, rather than cabling, but some of the high-end cable manufacturers are genuinely and solidly research-led. There is undoubtedly some snake-oil out there, and a lot of the prices are truly eye-watering, but to say it is all bull-****? Well, I think that is a little wide of the mark.

So, with all due respect to earlier posters, I genuinely have found the expertise within the high-end companies I've interacted with a lot more convincing than the expertise I read within internet forums.

Going back to the O.P's question "what do you use?" In the past, I have used the Russ Andrews Kimber Cables (I also have a Kimber-cable wired spur, although I no longer use this in my main system). The Kimber cable leads were the first that I felt I could detect an improvement from (back in about 2000) and my guess is that their impact is mainly, as advertised, due to the rejection of EMI/RFI. For anyone wanting to dip a toe into Audiophile mains leads, its a pretty low-risk strategy to buy a pre-used Kimber mains cable from ebay. If it doesn't work for you, put it back on ebay, there is a small but fairly consistent market in them.

I now use solid core silver "virtual air dielectric" cables throughout my system (Mains cables, interconnects and speaker cables). These are similar to the Nordost Valhalla, except they don't use the helical Teflon spacing threads between the conductors and the dielectric. (In effect, they are just solid core silver conductors in oversized teflon tubes, albeit with a fairly complex geometry). My totally subjectively-based feeling is that, for Audio cables, the boundary between the conductor and the dielectric is as important as the conductor itself (assuming a basic level of adequacy), and the whole "virtual air dielectric" thing seems to wok very well.

Interestingly (well, to me, at least.) Nordost & Vertex AQ did some research back in 2009 and Vertex AQ's successor company now use the same cable format , which suggests that the approach tested well:

https://www.nordost.com/downloads/NewApproachesToA...

I absolutely accept that the above is , in effect, an advertorial, but it should be an interesting read for anyone with an open mind.

Here's a pic that shows the Valhalla construction, with the teflon damping/insulating threads (themselves helically wound around each other) clearly visible (All info re: pricing has been removed to protect those with sensitive dispositions) :

[ian996]

Here's one Power-Amp channel's worth of cables on mine, you can just about see the similar geometry to the Valhalla, just a simpler (and, thankfully, cheaper implementation)



If fellow-KW owner Legzr1 is out there, rca and speaker terminals have been upgraded to WBT nextgen AG and the neutrik powercons have been upgraded from 20amp to 32amp to allow higher aggregate gauge umbilicals to the output stage.

(sighs: so much audiophile bullst stuff to buy, so little time (and money))

[Tony1963]

@ian996

Thank you. Nice post.

I’m not mad!

[Tony1963]

And I like this:


"NOT EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE COUNTED COUNTS, AND NOT EVERYTHING THAT COUNTS CAN BE COUNTED."
- ALBERT EINSTEIN.

[urquattroGus]

This will wind you up even more then, apparently Ethernet cables make a difference, you can spend a lot on one of those now.

Cables wise I have treated various cables as a way of fine tuning my system. For example one speaker cable took the edge off the treble and made the bass a bit fuller, not necessarily better it just tuned things slightly to my liking. All tried at no cost from my local dealer.

Frankly I don’t care what people say, there is a lot of snake oil out there, but a good system playing my favourite music gets me on an emotional level and is something I really enjoy. For me it’s worth it!

[tonyg58]

Do mains cables make a difference - Yes.
Would i pay what is being charged for high end mains cables? Almost certainly not (this also apples to analogue and digital cables including HDMI)

Like a previous poster I know the head engineer of a well known British cable company.
When he starts talking about about what's going on in cables (analogue, digital and mains) my head starts to hurt.

If you want to do some reading have a look here -

https://www.atlascables.com/design-technical-paper...

I don't work for the above company and if this is against forum rules i apologise.

[ATG]

It's like taking to people who believe in ghosts

[deckster]

Reliable, consistent, repeatable double-blind tests. That is all I ask.

[Tony1963]

deckster said:

Reliable, consistent, repeatable double-blind tests. That is all I ask.

Many years ago I read a report on a test that asked people to say whether the drink they were to taste was brandy or whisky. Under a little pressure, many couldn’t.

You don’t need us to provide you with ‘proof’. You just need to try for yourself, taking advantage of used items on eBay or 28 day free trials. It doesn’t matter to me or anyone else whether or not you do it. The only person who possibly loses out if you don’t is you.

[Tony1963]

And, seriously, can you imagine doing double blind ABX testing? You really wouldn’t want to do it.
You need to relax to enjoy music.

[ATG]

I'd someone can't actually tell the difference between whisky and brandy, yet they are adamant that they prefer whisky, you'd think them a little bit irrational, yes?

[thebraketester]

A fool and their money......

[mgv8]

ian996 said:

Well said Sir!

Thank you, I will do some reading a looking on ebay.

[Tony1963]

thebraketester said:

A fool and their money......

How many fools do you know that are into hifi?
The two guys I talked about in one of my posts are very intelligent guys.

A fool would be the person who thinks they know everything and isn’t willing to try new things.

[urquattroGus]

Tony1963 said:

thebraketester said:

A fool and their money......

How many fools do you know that are into hifi?
The two guys I talked about in one of my posts are very intelligent guys.

A fool would be the person who thinks they know everything and isn’t willing to try new things.

[thebraketester]

Tony1963 said:

thebraketester said:

A fool and their money......

How many fools do you know that are into hifi?
The two guys I talked about in one of my posts are very intelligent guys.

A fool would be the person who thinks they know everything and isn’t willing to try new things.

I am all ears....

[TonyRPH]

ian996 said:

<snip>
The Kimber cable leads were the first that I felt I could detect an improvement from (back in about 2000) and my guess is that their impact is mainly, as advertised, due to the rejection of EMI/RFI.
<snip>

So in essence what you are saying here, is that the short ~1m length of main cable is behaving as a filter?

An IEC socket with a decent filtering arrangement could achieve the same thing a heck of a lot cheaper (if mains borne RFI was really an issue).

Additionally, most transformers will themselves filter out EMI/RFI by virtue of the construction. Large power supply transformers don't conduct high frequencies very well.

Finally, if you can hear a difference it has to be measurable as there is nothing magical about audio engineering.

The power amp section of a typical amplifier needs to amplify frequencies in the range of ~10Hz to ~40kHz (top end that high not necessary but that's a topic in itself).

When presented with frequencies in the RF range (greater than 10MHz for example), a well designed amplifier should simply ignore them if the input filtering and feedback network is designed appropriately.

I've built amplifiers with very wide power bandwidths (almost full power - 100w RMS - at 500kHz) and had no issues with EMI/RFI - having even operated a CB transmitter (27MHz) in close proximity with no issues.

Any unwanted high frequencies 'sitting' on the mains network are unlikely to be greater than a few KHz, as most breakers / meters will filter those out anyway, due to the natural inductance of those devices, and any that does manage to break through will be at such a low level as to be totally benign.

Additionally, even the crappiest of switch mode PSUs inject practically nothing back into the mains these days (not that they ever generated enough grunge to be rendered audible).

So quite how 1m of mains cable can effect any kind of audible improvement escapes me (both from an engineering and audible point of view).

Ultimately, the amplifier is likely to be more at risk from air borne EMI/RFI and no mains cable will filter that out (but competent design will render it resistant to such issues anyway).

A 'click' or 'pop' on the mains may well be heard, but the spike there is huge (albeit brief).

[Tony1963]

And I’ll say it again!

You can use all the science that you know, and more, but for the sake of a free trial you’ll know for certain. It’s too easy to get bogged down, and I don’t do it.

[mgv8]

TonyRPH said:

Finally, if you can hear a difference it has to be measurable as there is nothing magical about audio engineering.

When the BBC LS3/5a where put tougher they where looking for a flat response. The microphone showed this but the expert ears said there was something wrong at the cross over frequency between the two drivers. The "bump" was introduced to fix this (ear over testing).

There is a lot going on and so testing is the clear way forwards. For me like the BBC engineers I can hear the difference between the cable that came with the amp and my new one.