More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
SteveKTMer said:
911hope said:
Are you talking about the raw digital data extracted from CD, or after conversion to analogue. (DAC).
This. It didn't extract all the data and what is did extract was often mixed with random digital noise. The early DACs did try to deal with this but most of them weren't very successful, hence the usual tinny, zingy sibilance that people often objected to with early CD systems. It did get better quite quickly.4x better was salesman nonsense.
I assume the latter, as some early machines had 14bit DACs.
The noise technique is actually adding dither to the LSB. A standard technique used to this day.
Still 14bit is 84dB, far ahead of vinyl reproduction capabilities and without the pops, clicks....
Most far preferred CD, dispute early limitations, which were actually dominated by interpolation filters, with slow roll off in the stop band, allowing aliasing frequencies to influence the sound.
This is what the 4x oversampling filter was about. Helpful but not 4 times better.
Tony1963 said:
When people start to prefer a sub-£10k integrated to £100k+ of pre amp, power amps and power supplies, there’s something wrong. (Or right!?)
Interesting question posed here.Starting with The proposition of a £10k integrated amp. What you are really buying for this is something that has a bill of materials of less than $1k, with the most expensive item being the cabinet.
It can still have the best of everything inside and that bit is more expensive because of the small volumes the brand (or their Manufacturer) buys in.
Having the pre and power amps close together in the same box on the same power system is the correct thing to do, since a major Must is the have a good ground plane, which cannot be achieved is 2 separate boxes, with separate power supplies and separated by 2m of power cables.
The reason brands make separates systems is to sell people who don't understand more boxes and make money.
Unfortunately people believe what they see and get fooled by bigger is better.
911hope said:
Interesting question posed here.
Starting with The proposition of a £10k integrated amp. What you are really buying for this is something that has a bill of materials of less than $1k, with the most expensive item being the cabinet.
It can still have the best of everything inside and that bit is more expensive because of the small volumes the brand (or their Manufacturer) buys in.
Having the pre and power amps close together in the same box on the same power system is the correct thing to do, since a major Must is the have a good ground plane, which cannot be achieved is 2 separate boxes, with separate power supplies and separated by 2m of power cables.
The reason brands make separates systems is to sell people who don't understand more boxes and make money.
Unfortunately people believe what they see and get fooled by bigger is better.
Maybe now, but: when I bought my Naim gear in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia in the 90s, no integrated amp that I had a demo of came anywhere near any product from Naim, integrated or separates. Ok, there was a very limited choice of brands available, but I’m not talking about slight differences here: there were huge differences in enjoyment. Starting with The proposition of a £10k integrated amp. What you are really buying for this is something that has a bill of materials of less than $1k, with the most expensive item being the cabinet.
It can still have the best of everything inside and that bit is more expensive because of the small volumes the brand (or their Manufacturer) buys in.
Having the pre and power amps close together in the same box on the same power system is the correct thing to do, since a major Must is the have a good ground plane, which cannot be achieved is 2 separate boxes, with separate power supplies and separated by 2m of power cables.
The reason brands make separates systems is to sell people who don't understand more boxes and make money.
Unfortunately people believe what they see and get fooled by bigger is better.
These days, if I was starting again from scratch, say after a burglary Insurance pay out, I’d go integrated without question. I’ve heard the music, like it, would buy it.
Tony1963 said:
Maybe now, but: when I bought my Naim gear in Al Khobar, Saudi Arabia in the 90s, no integrated amp that I had a demo of came anywhere near any product from Naim, integrated or separates. Ok, there was a very limited choice of brands available, but I’m not talking about slight differences here: there were huge differences in enjoyment.
These days, if I was starting again from scratch, say after a burglary Insurance pay out, I’d go integrated without question. I’ve heard the music, like it, would buy it.
Out of interest, how do you judge your Main system (if you have bothered or care) against current alternatives ( at any level of integration )These days, if I was starting again from scratch, say after a burglary Insurance pay out, I’d go integrated without question. I’ve heard the music, like it, would buy it.
911hope said:
Out of interest, how do you judge your Main system (if you have bothered or care) against current alternatives ( at any level of integration )
I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but here goes. I’ve five very good friends within a reasonable distance who have very nice systems. Two take it very seriously and are retired. These two have gone from very substantial Naim set ups to their current Accuphase: one integrated and the other from integrated to separates.
Another is a great, cynical, highly qualified engineer who is always up for a laugh, always up for the new, adores music. Has a real mix of separates after a handful of years climbing the Naim ladder. I can never keep up with what he has, but in his fairly small listening room with big Kudos speakers in, it always sounds pretty much perfect to me.
Another has a middling Naim set up in a lovely big room, and another has a great olive era Naim set up that he has bought all used in as new condition. A little compromised with location but building work this year will give him a decent room to get the most out of it.
And then there’s my dealer.
So a reasonable selection, if a little Naim biased. My system is ‘below’ the lot of them, but somehow I never feel shortchanged when listening to it. I enjoy their systems, they enjoy mine, we are all happy. (I’ve just realised that at 59 years old I’m the second youngest out of us in this little group, and that tells us a lot about the hifi industry’s challenges for the future.)
I’ve other hobbies too such as cooking, photography, clay shooting and watching motor racing. I’ve also had a really awful three years with bereavement, injury and family illnesses, so that little old Naim system of mine has been worth it’s weight in gold plate fuses
I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to dedicate my free time to listening to other systems from every other manufacturer. It would be a pointless waste of my life.
Tony1963 said:
I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but here goes.
I’ve five very good friends within a reasonable distance who have very nice systems. Two take it very seriously and are retired. These two have gone from very substantial Naim set ups to their current Accuphase: one integrated and the other from integrated to separates.
Another is a great, cynical, highly qualified engineer who is always up for a laugh, always up for the new, adores music. Has a real mix of separates after a handful of years climbing the Naim ladder. I can never keep up with what he has, but in his fairly small listening room with big Kudos speakers in, it always sounds pretty much perfect to me.
Another has a middling Naim set up in a lovely big room, and another has a great olive era Naim set up that he has bought all used in as new condition. A little compromised with location but building work this year will give him a decent room to get the most out of it.
And then there’s my dealer.
So a reasonable selection, if a little Naim biased. My system is ‘below’ the lot of them, but somehow I never feel shortchanged when listening to it. I enjoy their systems, they enjoy mine, we are all happy. (I’ve just realised that at 59 years old I’m the second youngest out of us in this little group, and that tells us a lot about the hifi industry’s challenges for the future.)
I’ve other hobbies too such as cooking, photography, clay shooting and watching motor racing. I’ve also had a really awful three years with bereavement, injury and family illnesses, so that little old Naim system of mine has been worth it’s weight in gold plate fuses
I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to dedicate my free time to listening to other systems from every other manufacturer. It would be a pointless waste of my life.
I should have worded my question more precisely,I’ve five very good friends within a reasonable distance who have very nice systems. Two take it very seriously and are retired. These two have gone from very substantial Naim set ups to their current Accuphase: one integrated and the other from integrated to separates.
Another is a great, cynical, highly qualified engineer who is always up for a laugh, always up for the new, adores music. Has a real mix of separates after a handful of years climbing the Naim ladder. I can never keep up with what he has, but in his fairly small listening room with big Kudos speakers in, it always sounds pretty much perfect to me.
Another has a middling Naim set up in a lovely big room, and another has a great olive era Naim set up that he has bought all used in as new condition. A little compromised with location but building work this year will give him a decent room to get the most out of it.
And then there’s my dealer.
So a reasonable selection, if a little Naim biased. My system is ‘below’ the lot of them, but somehow I never feel shortchanged when listening to it. I enjoy their systems, they enjoy mine, we are all happy. (I’ve just realised that at 59 years old I’m the second youngest out of us in this little group, and that tells us a lot about the hifi industry’s challenges for the future.)
I’ve other hobbies too such as cooking, photography, clay shooting and watching motor racing. I’ve also had a really awful three years with bereavement, injury and family illnesses, so that little old Naim system of mine has been worth it’s weight in gold plate fuses
I don’t have the time, energy or inclination to dedicate my free time to listening to other systems from every other manufacturer. It would be a pointless waste of my life.
I meant to ask if you thought the new alternatives you have come across are better in any meaningful way. Your opinion only.
911hope said:
I should have worded my question more precisely,
I meant to ask if you thought the new alternatives you have come across are better in any meaningful way. Your opinion only.
Are modern integrated amps ‘better’ than the integrated amps of 25 years ago? In my experience, without doubt. The separation, slam, detail, control, sweet top end were all a surprise to me. However, I’ll counter that by saying that perhaps I didn’t hear the best sounding integrated amps back then. I meant to ask if you thought the new alternatives you have come across are better in any meaningful way. Your opinion only.
And then there are the features, namely built in DACs and streaming. Unheard of back then.
When it comes to power amps, I think I’ve made it clear what my preference is, and I’m sticking with it for the foreseeable, and that pretty much ties me down to certain pre amps.
Tony1963 said:
Are modern integrated amps ‘better’ than the integrated amps of 25 years ago? In my experience, without doubt. The separation, slam, detail, control, sweet top end were all a surprise to me. However, I’ll counter that by saying that perhaps I didn’t hear the best sounding integrated amps back then.
And then there are the features, namely built in DACs and streaming. Unheard of back then.
When it comes to power amps, I think I’ve made it clear what my preference is, and I’m sticking with it for the foreseeable, and that pretty much ties me down to certain pre amps.
Ironically, until perhaps about 10 years ago or so, little has changed in integrated (or power) amp design (excluding Class D here), and what has changed is largely due to improvements / enhancements to power transistors.And then there are the features, namely built in DACs and streaming. Unheard of back then.
When it comes to power amps, I think I’ve made it clear what my preference is, and I’m sticking with it for the foreseeable, and that pretty much ties me down to certain pre amps.
Whilst these improved transistors have brought about improvements in specifications and reliability, it could be argued (subjectively) that the sound is unchanged compared to older designs.
I think it's fair to say the industry already knew the best way to build a good amplifier as far back as the early 80's (but that's not to say all manufacturers embraced this knowledge...).
TonyRPH said:
Ironically, until perhaps about 10 years ago or so, little has changed in integrated (or power) amp design (excluding Class D here), and what has changed is largely due to improvements / enhancements to power transistors.
Whilst these improved transistors have brought about improvements in specifications and reliability, it could be argued (subjectively) that the sound is unchanged compared to older designs.
I think it's fair to say the industry already knew the best way to build a good amplifier as far back as the early 80's (but that's not to say all manufacturers embraced this knowledge...).
This is correct, there have been no new linear amp topologies for decades, nor feedback techniques. Whilst these improved transistors have brought about improvements in specifications and reliability, it could be argued (subjectively) that the sound is unchanged compared to older designs.
I think it's fair to say the industry already knew the best way to build a good amplifier as far back as the early 80's (but that's not to say all manufacturers embraced this knowledge...).
Of the linear amps , the biggest difference is often the quality of the power supply and by that I mean how much money has been spent, transformer size and amount of reservoir capacitance. More is better, but it costs money.
With class d amps, there have been huge performance leaps, the best of which exceeds linear technology by a big margin. If you take the best digital Class D, in included the pre-amp function and is completely benign (something that cannot be achieved in the analogue domain at an cost).
I have a digital class D amp, which means any digital source is perfect (unless that source has some dodgy SRC that can't be bypassed)
Digital interconnect : anything optical is perfect . Cheap as chips.
Harry Flashman said:
On the amp thing, I was looking at going Class D (NAD C298 to match my streamer), but I do like my old Musical Fidelity A3.2, that can be recapped and comprehensively upgraded for £600.
Literally no idea if the latter is worth doing?
I would wager that your MF A3.2 (even before recapping) likely sounds better or equal to the NAD.Literally no idea if the latter is worth doing?
Also - £600 seems a lot for a recap, as it's unlikely that the entire amp will need recapping.
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