More 'Audiophile' bullsh*t
Discussion
Le TVR said:
Go back to the principle of the AC port of any equipment being bi-directional.
You must consider the cable attached to this port as being an open wire transmission line and as such it will transmit/receive and couple to and from.
It's widely recognised that cables can act as antennae (I assume that's what your statement above implies).You must consider the cable attached to this port as being an open wire transmission line and as such it will transmit/receive and couple to and from.
Le TVR said:
This is why physical separation and avoidance of rat's nests is important.
However, the properties of a transmission line are directly affected by physical size, shape and spacing.
Again, I don't think there's any argument regarding separation of cables etc. and of course length will determine resonance frequency, just like an antenna.However, the properties of a transmission line are directly affected by physical size, shape and spacing.
Le TVR said:
I have never heard it but there may be a rationale behind certain cables. BUT to me that would indicate a problem elsewhere between the equipment in question for being susceptible in the first place. Therefore the likelyhood of any cable working better than any other is extremely equipment and physical placing dependant etc etc.
Having spent many years working on various electronic equipment (mostly domestic) - it's abundantly clear that not all equipment is created equally (certainly with regard to PSU design / filtering / mains input treatment).Le TVR said:
The hypothesis is extremely tenuous but that seems to be what a lot of snake oil products exploit.
I would rather search for the root problem that adopt a sticking plaster solution.
Tenuous indeed - but if it keeps the money rolling in.. I would rather search for the root problem that adopt a sticking plaster solution.
Le TVR said:
My supply is also a dedicated spur but L+N are made up as a twisted pair in 4mm with separate earth. Equipment AC cables are also similar twisted pair.
custodian said:
Now that is clutching at straws.
No it isn't; I simply answered your question with the fact that there exists a recognised opposite of the placebo effect. I am interested in the ability of the mind to fool itself, and also the biology of adaptive systems (such as hearing). I was not offering an opinion on whether you had experienced it when testing your hi-fi equipment, but to be sure you'd have to be very careful in setting up your experiments.custodian said:
Well, in a controlled series of listening tests with several listeners of different backgrounds, there were consistent conclusions where some were better, some were worse and some couldn't be differentiated. Nobody knew which cables they were listening to. How does a placebo effect play out in that scenario. Placebo effect, by definition, requires a particular expectation.
Surely expectations are set by the very purpose of the listening panel being there in the first place?custodian said:
Well, in a controlled series of listening tests with several listeners of different backgrounds, there were consistent conclusions where some were better, some were worse and some couldn't be differentiated. Nobody knew which cables they were listening to. How does a placebo effect play out in that scenario. Placebo effect, by definition, requires a particular expectation.
Each time I have posted on this thread, you have responded as if I had attacked your views. You appear to read a great deal more into questions and statements than is intended. Much like with Countdown's earlier simple questions regarding measurable difference. As I guessed before, perhaps that is because of the negative atmosphere on this thread; after all the title is fairly aggressive.To repeat: I was answering your question regarding the placebo effect without intending to offer any opinion as to whether that is what you have experienced. As a further comment; it is possible for the placebo/nocebo effect to occur without a particular expectation; it has been noted that patients can be aware of the placebo, and yet it still has a healing effect.
In the case of audio testing, I'm not even sure the terms apply, though it is obvious that expectation can overrule reality in our own minds in many situations. It is very easy to introduce bias and expectation into experimentation.
custodian said:
TonyRPH said:
Surely expectations are set by the very purpose of the listening panel being there in the first place?
Of course you are correct. They are expecting some differences however consistently identifying the change without any visual clue seems to support the basic premise that mains cables can make a difference.Have there been any properly conducted published blind trials of mains leads?
The physics just doesn't stand up.
custodian said:
BliarOut said:
To be a proper test you'd have to sometimes keep everything the same and repeat to see if the panels opinion changed.
Have there been any properly conducted published blind trials of mains leads?
The physics just doesn't stand up.
How do the physics stand up in the way a rats nest layout can affect the sound?Have there been any properly conducted published blind trials of mains leads?
The physics just doesn't stand up.
You ever seen a UPS input graph? UK mains is all over the shop.
custodian said:
Tony, you are very fortunate where you live. Ours is nothing like that!
I reckon I must be.Unfortunately, we're more challenged by the proximity of the Leeds Bradford airport, which is approximately 2 miles away 'as the crow flies' and getting decent FM reception is quite difficult for long distance stations.
I have a dipole antenna in my loft, directed away from the airport, so I can receive most of the strong stations, but DX'ing is a non starter.
Manually tuning through the FM waveband results in a variety of whistles, whines and various other 'interesting' sounds in between the stronger stations.
But I digress...
custodian said:
Your comment on UK power supply is correct but not totally relevant unless you'd care to clarify.
I think the point is that the electricity supply varies in both voltage and frequency and noise, sometimes quite considerably. If the minuscule electrical effects of changing a mains cable are audible, then surely these much larger effects must also be audible. What is more, since they are comparatively huge, their effect must be catastrophic on the sound you hear.tank slapper said:
I think the point is that the electricity supply varies in both voltage and frequency and noise, sometimes quite considerably. If the minuscule electrical effects of changing a mains cable are audible, then surely these much larger effects must also be audible. What is more, since they are comparatively huge, their effect must be catastrophic on the sound you hear.
Mains voltage fluctuations should pass unnoticed to equipment with (properly) regulated supplies.This will include the vast majority of HiFi equipment, with the exception of power amplifiers, which rarely have regulated supplies.
And power amplifiers usually have large value reservoir capacitors, which (when the amp is idle) will soak up these fluctuations.
During music playback, the power supply within the amp will be showing some fluctuation anyway, so unless the mains voltage changes dramatically (and suddenly) it's likely that such an event will pass unnoticed by the listener.
Many of the amps I build do not have protection relays on the speaker outputs, and when playing music at a relatively low level, it is actually possible to turn the power off, and the music will continue playing for 10 - 15 seconds (depending on volume level).
TonyRPH said:
Mains voltage fluctuations should pass unnoticed to equipment with (properly) regulated supplies.
This will include the vast majority of HiFi equipment, with the exception of power amplifiers, which rarely have regulated supplies.
And power amplifiers usually have large value reservoir capacitors, which (when the amp is idle) will soak up these fluctuations.
During music playback, the power supply within the amp will be showing some fluctuation anyway, so unless the mains voltage changes dramatically (and suddenly) it's likely that such an event will pass unnoticed by the listener.
Many of the amps I build do not have protection relays on the speaker outputs, and when playing music at a relatively low level, it is actually possible to turn the power off, and the music will continue playing for 10 - 15 seconds (depending on volume level).
Yes, I realise all that. I was trying to point out the absurdity of suggesting that the absolutely tiny differences between various mains cables make a difference to how a system sounds, yet the very much larger differences that occur from minute to minute in the mains supply are somehow not audible. Any system that it is possible to hear such a difference on has a pretty sThis will include the vast majority of HiFi equipment, with the exception of power amplifiers, which rarely have regulated supplies.
And power amplifiers usually have large value reservoir capacitors, which (when the amp is idle) will soak up these fluctuations.
During music playback, the power supply within the amp will be showing some fluctuation anyway, so unless the mains voltage changes dramatically (and suddenly) it's likely that such an event will pass unnoticed by the listener.
Many of the amps I build do not have protection relays on the speaker outputs, and when playing music at a relatively low level, it is actually possible to turn the power off, and the music will continue playing for 10 - 15 seconds (depending on volume level).
tty designed power supply in my opinion. This whole mains lead thing is completely ridiculous.I'm the first to pop up and say that you need to listen and test rather than simply say that adding seemingly odd things to a system cannot make a difference, but I've auditioned a load of different mains cables in the padt and even though I have been looking for a difference in sound (and willing them to make a difference to try and validate the cost of buying the things to try) I simply have never been able to hear any discernable difference in sound. I've auditioned mains conditioners as well and cannot hear the slightest difference.
There are many things that I have tried (as mentioned on this thread earlier) that I felt did make a difference, but I cannot quantify why, but power cables were not one of them.
Maybe that's just my system, but I just can't hear it.
There are many things that I have tried (as mentioned on this thread earlier) that I felt did make a difference, but I cannot quantify why, but power cables were not one of them.
Maybe that's just my system, but I just can't hear it.
kayc said:
I agree and moved away from Naim many years ago partly on the ridiculous cable bullst..as Naca5 speaker cable they insist on is possibly the worst ive ever heard(even though some on here say all speaker cables sound the same)!
The Naim speaker cable is only part bullst..as Naca5 speaker cable they insist on is possibly the worst ive ever heard(even though some on here say all speaker cables sound the same)!t .The Naim amps that required it were cheap class B transistor amps with global negative feedback (GNFB) loops. As with such amps they are extremely susceptible to any capacitive loading on the output and 99% of them have a little zobel network or inductor to make any capacitive load harmless.
The Naim amps that need the special cable have no output inductors, so the cable has to be low capacitance and high inductance - which is why you have to use a certain length of it. 'Proper' speaker cable can cause ringing and oscillation on these amps as the combo of capacitance and GNFB turns the amp into a wannabe oscillator.
It's quite clever in one way but why anyone would want to pay a fortune for a cheap class B transistor I'll never know.
Quite why anyone would want to design one for top-end hifi is another mystery. Fine for a retro rig in the workshop I guess, although an old Jap. amp generally does a better job and looks a whole lot better too.
Remember for intrinsic linearity (the key to amps) transistors and class B are a terrible choice, and wrapping it with GNFB just flattens the turd.
custodian said:
I fully understand the scepticism as to differences introduced by mains cables. To demonstrate some of those differences I offered to demo them to interested PH members. None of the sceptics took up the offer.
Well, one I'm certainly a sceptic (especially for the mains stuff) but still looking forward to meeting you and doing some listening tests David.custodian said:
tank slapper said:
Yes, I realise all that. I was trying to point out the absurdity of suggesting that the absolutely tiny differences between various mains cables make a difference to how a system sounds, yet the very much larger differences that occur from minute to minute in the mains supply are somehow not audible. Any system that it is possible to hear such a difference on has a pretty stty designed power supply in my opinion. This whole mains lead thing is completely ridiculous.
Yet you didn't respond to an offer to let you clearly here the differences? You see my problem with this, I'm sure. You from a theoretical standpoint say it can't make any difference. I can hear significant differences and can replicate these differences so others can also do so.tty designed power supply in my opinion. This whole mains lead thing is completely ridiculous.How can the proposition be ridiculous?
BTW, I'm not having a go, the claims made for that cable are simply marketing bulls
t.Floating pins for better contact? The sparky just bends the 2.5 in your socket with his pliers and screws it in, floating pins will do sweet FA.
It fulfils the 'audiophile bulls
t' criteria perfectly.Nope, my stance is that cable is utter marketing bks. I can see how a UPS might reduce background noise and assist during brown outs, a bit of flex simply can't do that.
If I'm charitable I can see how a ferrite ring could have an effect on spikes, but you can get them from Maplins for £1.99 so what do you actually get for your £463.01?
It's the job of any decent PSU to smooth and regulating the supply it receives, not the mains cable.
ks. I can see how a UPS might reduce background noise and assist during brown outs, a bit of flex simply can't do that.If I'm charitable I can see how a ferrite ring could have an effect on spikes, but you can get them from Maplins for £1.99 so what do you actually get for your £463.01?
It's the job of any decent PSU to smooth and regulating the supply it receives, not the mains cable.
tank slapper said:
Yes, I realise all that. I was trying to point out the absurdity of suggesting that the absolutely tiny differences between various mains cables make a difference to how a system sounds, yet the very much larger differences that occur from minute to minute in the mains supply are somehow not audible. Any system that it is possible to hear such a difference on has a pretty stty designed power supply in my opinion. This whole mains lead thing is completely ridiculous.
Agreed. tty designed power supply in my opinion. This whole mains lead thing is completely ridiculous.
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