Turntable to AV Receiver low volume help

[chris285]

I have tried searching for this but I am struggling to find answers, i think i am maybe being an audio hethen in my setup but the basics are my turntable is much lower volume than other content.

My setup is a Audio Technica AT-LP3 using the built in pre amp, and it is plugged into a Denon AVR-X2200W receiver and right now driving a pair of KEF Q series bookshelf(iQ1 i think) and a Q Acoustics 3090ci centre with a bk electronics sub as well. I am having to use a 5m phono from the receiver to an adapter, and the turntable is connected into this.

The issue is that when listening to viynl I have to have the receiver set to 50% volume to get an acceptable level in a small room, I am sat probably 8ft from the speakers and where other content such as xbox or youview tv box I only need to have half the volumn level of say 25-30% to get the same audio output levels. I know I have a mismatch in speakers in terms of ohm rating but as mentioned with the different content this is not the issue.

I have a feeling the issue is the analogue signal from record is different to the other content where it will be digitial so is a lower volume, but i all my googling tells me is about making sure i have a pre amp which I do and is set as changing that setting I cannot heard anything so I know it is not switched on.

I am trying to work out why I am getting what I am when it should be amplified, and is there anything i can do to try and normalize this volume requirement but I just don't know enough about this nor do I have lots of money to throw at this

EDIT

So been reading up and new 2600 does have a dedicated phono mm input so that answers that, but doing a spec comparsion with mine i noticed something which sounds like it may explain something but i don't have the knowledge to asnwer this

When looking at the power amp specs for mine it says at 8ohms there is either no output or no data, it is present for the newer model but may just not be there as i say I am not sure but seems odd as the centre speaker was much clearer and thats a 6ohm which does have a power output

Edited by chris285 on Sunday 29th September 17:49

[Murph7355]

Sounds like your phono stage/pre-amp isn't working properly to me.

Do you have the switches set properly?

Same for cartridge type?

(Have you tried these in their alternative positions?).

You can set the relative sound output level of different sources on the Denon, but that sounds like it might be a fudge in this instance.

[Deranged Rover]

chris285 said:

. I am having to use a 5m phono from the receiver to an adapter, and the turntable is connected into this.

What's this bit about? What is the adaptor? As an aside, 5m is really too long for a line level cable.

[toon10]

My setup does the same. Yamaha RN602 amp with phono connection to Project Debut SE3 turntable. I have to really crank the volume up when playing vinyl then remember to turn it back down when using my other sources. Be interesting to see if this is normal or if something's gone wrong!

[chris285]

Murph7355 said:

Sounds like your phono stage/pre-amp isn't working properly to me.

Do you have the switches set properly?

Same for cartridge type?

(Have you tried these in their alternative positions?).

You can set the relative sound output level of different sources on the Denon, but that sounds like it might be a fudge in this instance.

I am using an MM cartridge and have this set on the back, and for the output if i set the output the other way i hear nothing so it is using the internal pre amp

[quote]What's this bit about? What is the adaptor? As an aside, 5m is really too long for a line level cable.

So the location of the turntable is the reason for this cable, and i didn't realise the turntable had a hard wired phono cable hence the bridge to connect 2 phono cables together

[Murph7355]

chris285 said:

So the location of the turntable is the reason for this cable, and i didn't realise the turntable had a hard wired phono cable hence the bridge to connect 2 phono cables together

Can you move the turntable closer temporarily to rule out issues with cable length?

As noted, you can change the volume level of the different inputs, so that might be a make shift solution.

I'd also recommend contacting Denon support. They were fantastic when I had issues with hooking up my Sony TV recently. Very methodical and thorough (though be persistent ).

[Crackie]

Assuming the switches on the back of the AT are set to Line and MM. Have you tried plugging the TT into another piece of equipment? This will establish whether the issue is with the AT or the Denon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYbXYdyQx8A

[chris285]

So i can move the turntable closer to the receiver for a temp test which I will try to do and see what effect that has, if not I will contact denon support and see what they say.

I can maybe try another amp from a friend for testing, it's a proper stereo amp so that would also confirm if the receiver is the issue or not

[chris285]

Tried turnable into the receiver direct and the same volumne, have raised a query with Denon so see what they say

[budgie smuggler]

If other stuff plays at the correct level in the denon, then the issue is almost certainly the phono pre-amp in your turntable. Take it back to the shop and get them to test it.

Or if you can't do that, get a cheap phono pre-amp or borrow one, connect it to that then to the denon and see if it suddenly plays at the correct volume.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Monday 7th October 16:57

[996owner]

There could be a few reasons here...

Most hi-fi separate kit wasn't amplified and had line outputs that fed into an amp (standard non adjustable line level)

More modern kit such as ipads/ipods other media player stuff have amps built in to drive headphones. Your freeview box may have an adjustable output stage (via remote control) for your convenience (so you don't have to keep getting up to turn the amp up and down) . You therefore have a variable output and its no longer a fixed standard line level. I guess this is why you're seeing such a level difference.
Also older records were mastered at different levels too (LP's use to be much quieter than singles).

The cartridge on your turntable could also be faulty (unlikely as during my entire working life as a broadcast engineer i've never seen a duff cartridge)

On my hifi playing vinyl or DAT is quieter that say or Ipod/tv . Also bear in mind the useless broadcasters have massive level difference between channels (no standards) .


When you do play viynl does it sound "thin" ie very toppy and zero bass?



worst case get a variable RIAA preamp and plug it into a spare Line input on your amp

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/art-dj-pre-ii-phono-pr...

Edited by 996owner on Monday 7th October 19:33

[chris285]

I have to change the receiver settings to get a better sound as I would descrive, basically I change audessy to L+R bypass and it sounds better than the reference I use for normal content. I wouldn't descrive the sound as thin shall we say unless I forget to turn my sub on, once I have it setup i'd say it's decent sounding to my non audiphile ears I might add.

I think as you aluded to the short answer is the source is quieter than my other content and simply that is how it is, I have the option to switch to an MC cartridge from the stock MM but i have no idea if that would affect the volume at all or not

I think the next stage is to try a preamp like you suggested and see if that does what I expect, then it is simply the source volume is what it is and the preamp in the turntable combined with the receiver is doing what it can

I heard back from Denon to my query and got the standrd response of plug it into a phono connector if it has one, try the usual so sort of what I expected really in this case.

[budgie smuggler]

chris285 said:

I heard back from Denon to my query and got the standrd response of plug it into a phono connector if it has one, try the usual so sort of what I expected really in this case.

Have you spoken to the shop or the manufacturer of the record player?

chris285 said:

I think as you aluded to the short answer is the source is quieter than my other content and simply that is how it is,

But it shouldn't be. I've had a lot of amps, phono amps, mixers, turntables and never had a setup that was quieter than e.g. a separate CD player to the extent that you're saying.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 8th October 14:14

[996owner]

chris285 said:

I have to change the receiver settings to get a better sound as I would descrive, basically I change audessy to L+R bypass and it sounds better than the reference I use for normal content. I wouldn't descrive the sound as thin shall we say unless I forget to turn my sub on, once I have it setup i'd say it's decent sounding to my non audiphile ears I might add.

I think as you aluded to the short answer is the source is quieter than my other content and simply that is how it is, I have the option to switch to an MC cartridge from the stock MM but i have no idea if that would affect the volume at all or not

I think the next stage is to try a preamp like you suggested and see if that does what I expect, then it is simply the source volume is what it is and the preamp in the turntable combined with the receiver is doing what it can

I heard back from Denon to my query and got the standrd response of plug it into a phono connector if it has one, try the usual so sort of what I expected really in this case.

I have a pre amp on every input to the hifi and balance the inputs accordingly to suit. The biggest pain is the output from the TV, so high compared to everything else... to get round that I use a professional audio processor that does limiting (for loud sources) and AGC (Automatic Gain Control) to level everything off. its very OTT but the kit didn't cost anything so why not.

[996owner]

chris285 said:

I think as you aluded to the short answer is the source is quieter than my other content and simply that is how it is,

But it shouldn't be. I've had a lot of amps, phono amps, mixers, turntables and never had a setup that was quieter than e.g. a separate CD player to the extent that you're saying.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 8th October 14:14

It shoudl't be but mixers have gain settings on each channel for balancing sources.
If you plugged a Cd player into a channel and played a track then exchanged the cd player for say an ipod/iphone depending on where the volume is set to you'd have a massive level difference. Tv's and freeview boxes often have line outputs but they follow the volume setting on the Tv thus giving more gain (like the ipod/iphone) . more traditional hifi equipment have a fixed non adjustable line out and i recon that's how the OP is seeing a volume issue between sources.
Not saying there isnt a failt thou ;-)

[budgie smuggler]

996owner said:

It shoudl't be but mixers have gain settings on each channel for balancing sources.
If you plugged a Cd player into a channel and played a track then exchanged the cd player for say an ipod/iphone depending on where the volume is set to you'd have a massive level difference. Tv's and freeview boxes often have line outputs but they follow the volume setting on the Tv thus giving more gain (like the ipod/iphone) . more traditional hifi equipment have a fixed non adjustable line out and i recon that's how the OP is seeing a volume issue between sources.
Not saying there isnt a failt thou ;-)

Yes agreed, that's why I said to compare it to a separate CD player. I should have been clearer though.

What I meant by 'separate' is one of these:

https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/separates/cd-pl...

As you say, with a fixed line level output, as opposed to a headphone output.

[996owner]

budgie smuggler said:

996owner said:

It shoudl't be but mixers have gain settings on each channel for balancing sources.
If you plugged a Cd player into a channel and played a track then exchanged the cd player for say an ipod/iphone depending on where the volume is set to you'd have a massive level difference. Tv's and freeview boxes often have line outputs but they follow the volume setting on the Tv thus giving more gain (like the ipod/iphone) . more traditional hifi equipment have a fixed non adjustable line out and i recon that's how the OP is seeing a volume issue between sources.
Not saying there isnt a failt thou ;-)

Yes agreed, that's why I said to compare it to a separate CD player. I should have been clearer though.

What I meant by 'separate' is one of these:

https://www.richersounds.com/hi-fi/separates/cd-pl...

As you say, with a fixed line level output, as opposed to a headphone output.

:-) all good ..


This could be a solution (nice and cheap too) https://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/linemix2s/line-mixer...

ignore channel 1 plug this between deck (input 2) and amp, its got a 20db gain to it. (assuming your record deck has a built in pre amp)

[chris285]

[quote]Have you spoken to the shop or the manufacturer of the record player?
[/quote]
I have not, I got it through Amazon but was Richer sounds but not contacted either

[quote]But it shouldn't be. I've had a lot of amps, phono amps, mixers, turntables and never had a setup that was quieter than e.g. a separate CD player to the extent that you're saying.
[/quote]
So to be clear all other sources are over HDMI into my Denon AV receiver, this is the only other audio source I have to compare it against.

[quote]I have a pre amp on every input to the hifi and balance the inputs accordingly to suit. The biggest pain is the output from the TV, so high compared to everything else... to get round that I use a professional audio processor that does limiting (for loud sources) and AGC (Automatic Gain Control) to level everything off. its very OTT but the kit didn't cost anything so why not.
[/quote]
So my TV does no audio, most of my content is consumed via my Xbox One s which goes into the receiver via HDMI, the other one is my BT youview box also via HDMI but again volume is not required here as both are digital signals

[quote]But it shouldn't be. I've had a lot of amps, phono amps, mixers, turntables and never had a setup that was quieter than e.g. a separate CD player to the extent that you're saying.
[/quote]
I am not an audio expert myself but given i am not using hifi equipment for my listening being home receiver and I am comparing to a digital signal, my conclusion is that this is the cause and my next step to eliminate would be to try a phono preamp

[soggybiscuit]

You should be able to increase the input source level on your Denon to match the rest of your HDMI devices. Make sure you’ve selected the relevant input for your turntable and then from the main menu on the receiver choose ‘Inputs’ followed by ‘Source Level’. Add a few dB until you’re at a level you’re happy with.

AFAIK this should only be applied to the current input but might be worth checking your other inputs after a small increase!!

HTH

[budgie smuggler]

chris285 said:

I am not an audio expert myself but given i am not using hifi equipment for my listening being home receiver and I am comparing to a digital signal, my conclusion is that this is the cause and my next step to eliminate would be to try a phono preamp

Is there a Richer Sounds store near by? Seeing as it came from them (albeit via Amazon) I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to check it's working.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Wednesday 9th October 16:58