Mid range AV set up - most confusing!

[Droptheclutch]

Hi guys,

First off, thanks to DeR for the Panny TV chat and to the chaps that replied to my Richer Sounds thread.

My new dilemma is this (sorry for the long post, btw!) -

A Panny TX42V10 will be bought soon and now I need (OK, want) a middle of the road system to play the audio through. The thing is, there's far too much choice out there!

SWMBO & I watch a few DVD's (especially in winter) that mainly consist of Sci Fi, action, thriller and once in a blue moon, a chick flick (with me usually complaining about it to start with, LOL).

I'd ideally like front floor standing speakers that will be suitable for our eclectic musical tastes when not doing the movie watching, a sub, centre channel and rear surrounds. All connected to a receiver that will perform well, but not break the bank. A blue ray player will also be bought; perhaps a Panny offering that has a hard drive for recording to.

All our CDs are now on the ipod so we'll need some sort of connector for that to plug into the receiver.

I've got a soft spot for Mordaunt Short as many years ago my folks had a pair connected to a Marantz system and they were just superb.

Budget? Excluding the TV I suppose about £2K? We could spend more, but I don't know if we'd really benefit (as our ears are not that cultured!).

So, if anyone could point me in the direction of what's good, bad or ugly, that would be great!

Thanks for any advice

Cheers,

DTC

ETA - spelling - damn the pub!

Edited by Droptheclutch on Saturday 10th October 00:27

[CRACKIE]

Are you going to buy new or is used gear an option ? IMHO a new reciever, with latest processing tech, and S/H speakers will give the best performance for your £2K.

[Droptheclutch]

CRACKIE said:

Are you going to buy new or is used gear an option ? IMHO a new reciever, with latest processing tech, and S/H speakers will give the best performance for your £2K.

New, without a dubt. Reason being you never know how 2nd hand kit has been treated, even if it still looks all nice and shiney. They may have been playing thrash metal with it too!

[OldSkoolRS]

If you are looking at new then I'd suggest the following setup as a starting point, though there are thousands of alternatives and different combinations:

Prices and links for RicherSounds/Hifibitz, but other places will have these items for similar prices.

BluRay player: Sony BDP-S350 (£120) or Panasonic DMPBD35 (£150) NOTE: To get a BluRay with hard drive will eat nearly half your budget as these are new models. Might be worth considering a separate HDD recorder for Freeview such as the Humax models linked below (around £120)

http://www.richersounds.com/products/home-cinema/h...

http://www.richersounds.com/products/home-cinema/h...

Receiver (will require some suitable cable to connect the iPod, from £20 upwards): Denon AVR1910 (£440), Onkyo TSXR607 (£400) or Yamaha RXV765 (£400).

http://www.richersounds.com/products/home-cinema/h...

Speakers, always a very personal choice, so demo really required here. At the very least make sure your front speakers match or are at least from the same range:

Mordant Short options: Aviano 6 floorstanders (£600), centre: Aviano 5 (£220), rears bookshelf type Aviano 1 (£250) & subwoofer Aviano 7 (£430) see subwoofer option below as matching not required except from a cosmetic point of view.

http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/product.asp?id=8898 other MS range on this site also.

Another option:
Kef iQ5SE floostanders (£400), centre speaker Kef iQ2 (£150) with Kef iQ1 bookshelves as surrounds (maybe consider some dipole/bipole surrounds for a more 'diffuse' surround effect, especially if they are close to your listening position, something like Mission m3dsi surrounds for £180 http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/product.asp?id=5582 ).

http://www.richersounds.com/product/floorstanders/...


Subwoofers: I believe that you will get much better value for money by not buying the 'matching' subs for the speakers above. There is no need to worry about matching the timbre of your main speakers (though setting the levels correctly is still important). I have two models made by the British company 'BK Electronics'. They sell direct to the public, hence no showroom or demo facilities but great value for money: One of their £300 models is almost identical to a 'shop bought' £700 job for example. I have the XLS200 (£295) in my conservatory and the larger Monolith (£428)in my living room. Depending on whether or not you live in a detached house, I'd recommend at least looking to the XLS400 (£400) to go with those floorstanders you're considering, maybe go for the XLS200 if you're in a semi (and want to stay friends with your neightbours ).

http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm

Going for the MS speakers and a BK XLS200 sub I make that around £2,035 using Panasonic BD player for ease of opearion depending on options of speakers and amps. Should make a really impressive setup for that price. You could mix and match some that list depending on your priorities, maybe buy cheaper surround speakers and a dearer amp.

FWIW I have a Denon 2808 amp myself and a Sony BDP-S350, PMC speakers and the Monolith sub. I have a JVC HD350 projector and the picture and sound quality is great (IMHO), so I'd have no problem recommending the similar Denon 1910 and IIRC the Panny BD player is equal to the BDP-S350 in terms of BluRay picture quality and possibly better at DVD upscaling too.

[Droptheclutch]

OldSkoolRS said:

If you are looking at new then I'd suggest the following setup as a starting point...

Hi Oldschool,

Many thanks for your input - really helpful

No worries with the neighbours as the nearest one is a five minute walk!

I'll take a look at all the links and will hopefully be in some listening rooms soon, too.

Cheers,

DTC

[WeirdNeville]

Just to consider, I run a 5.0 set up with Floorstanding fronts, centre and bookshelf rears (all Tannoy Custom F1's, so cheaper kit than you will be opting for most likely). The amp mixes in the Sub channel and I have to say I've never ever missed not having a sub-woofer. The Big tannoys hit you in the gut and give you chest compressions in big explosions, but I find the dedicated sub channel overblown and intrusive in most 5.1 set ups I've heard, even properly configured ones.

With that in mind, I'd be tempted to go for the 5.0 set up, spend a little more than you might on the front speakers being as you obviously like your music as much as films, and then you can always buy a sub six months down the line if you feel you need it.
Try disabling the Sub for part of your listening sessions, and remmeber, it's very Whizz bang, but all the time? In your living room?

[ShiggyBiggs]

I would definatly get some of those wee kicker things that hook onto the bottom of your chair and give you the effect of more bass

[derestrictor]

For £2k (before application of the much cheapness calculator) you need to be looking at a Yamaha RXV-3900 with the KEF KHT-3005SE(HT2BE)W.

I was watching this using scene 3 from Valkyrie which features some stupefying acoustic pans: the amount of soundtrack revelation was electrifying and jumping to the sequence where the boy Cruise is introduced to the conspirators revealed a fabulous quotient of dialogue handling.

The fact they're a sexy as hell is a bonus.

[Droptheclutch]

derestrictor said:

For £2k (before application of the much cheapness calculator) you need to be looking at a Yamaha RXV-3900 with the KEF KHT-3005SE(HT2BE)W.

What are the Kefs like with the old music? Or new music, even!

The Yam sounds good - thanks for the heads up

[OldSkoolRS]

Droptheclutch said:

What are the Kefs like with the old music? Or new music, even!

The Yam sounds good - thanks for the heads up

I'd very much doubt those satellite speakers would be a patch on the floorstanders I posted above for music and the sub would similarly be roundly beaten by even the smaller BK XLS200. The Kef speaker system is more of a 'lifestyle' setup, which is fine if you want something small and pretty to keep the OH happy, but for some great music results, something a bit more substantial will always win out IMHO.

No qualms about the Yamaha amp though, they're often recommended as being good with music.

[derestrictor]

You may doubt it, I hear them on a daily basis alongside a number of several thousand pound reference floor standers.

They are fit to mix the drinks of and tie the shoe laces of some reasonably pricey, more conventional transducer arrangements.

Indeed, ito pure AV, the combo I suggested (as calibrated my venerable audiophile sage, Gandalf) is not disgraced by the Z11/D7 (Jamo) THX brace.

[tdm34ds]

Not everyone wants the intrusion into the living space of big floor standers and
Subs the size of an average fridge!

The Yam RXV3900 is a steal at it's retail price, if it's reduced then the value is off the scale
The Kef KHT3005s are real big hitters, in our Dem room We have a Yam Z11/Kef XQ package
retailing at over £11,000, and this combo really does get very close! It just seems to be a
perfect combination, it does take some very carefull setting up, but if you use the
YPAO autocalibration as a starting point then you can get a staggeringly coherent sound stage.

Remember just because the floorstanders are big it doesn't make them better!
A True THX speaker system has matched speakers in terms of frequency response
from 80hz to 20khz and then the sub does all the work below 80hz when you go for a disparate
speaker package then you wont get a perfect balance no matter how good the speakers are.

Now i'm not for one minute suggesting that the Kefs meet THX specifications, but because they
work in a similar fashion there are distinct advantages to the Sat/Sub type of speakers

Now if you take into account the cost, the "Partner acceptence factor" the fact that it doesn't
make your front room into a HiFi showroom, I don't think you could get a better combo for your
£2k.

[OldSkoolRS]

tdm34ds said:

Not everyone wants the intrusion into the living space of big floor standers and
Subs the size of an average fridge!

Perhaps not, but the OP specifically said he wanted floorstanders for his music, hence my suggestions. I went from floorstanders myself to get something more compact and took ages demoing and bringing likely suspects home on loan. I found that the lifestyle type speakers just didn't cut it for music and eventually found a compromise in some PMC DB1+ speakers combined with a sub (not as big as a fridge, but close, at least it can be used as a small table so SWMBO isn't bothered by it ). I'm not a fan of EQ systems to resolve poor room acoustics or speaker limitations (I've turned off the Audyssey in my AV amp for example) I prefer careful setup and positioning to get a better 'native' result. YMMV and IMHO of course.

[sonic_2k_uk]

If you're wanting something for hifi the best you can get is Linn.

I would look out for a set of ninka's (~£400) which are very good for music and movies and then a 5120, ekwal or trikan for the centre.

You will also want a preamp/processor such as a 5103 or exotik (which doesn't have digital inputs btw).

You'll also need power amplifiers. I would bi-amp the ninkas and centre, then have 2 more amps for the rear, totalling 8.

A 5125 has 5 channels so initially you might want the ninka's bi-amped with a single amped 5120, then bi-amp the centre and add the rears when you get another one, or an alternative. The 5105's are 2 channel, so you'd need a few of them, and the newer kit will be expensive.

I'd be surprised if you couldn't build a stunning music system that does movies exceptionally well for between £2-£3k.

Coincidentally my step dad had just been trying to sell his Yamaha RXV-2700 which i gather is very similar to the 3900 minus a few inputs. He had it with dynaudio audience 42 speakers and it sounded pretty good for movies considering its size and price. It also does HD audio decoding and has HDMI which is a big plus. A real second hand bargain IMO.

[derestrictor]

Actually, the best you can get is Steinway Lyngdorf but such delusional fancies are like wet dreams o'er underground caverns filled with Leno budget, smörgåsbord plasterings of impossible exotica...

If our man has £250k to spend on speakers I'll melt away but he wants AV with an accent on hifi for £2k.

Listen to Gandalf; he has the facial hair to back up the jive.

The truth is, their are innumerable speakers vying for the affections of what is a tiny market and one which today (certainly in the UK) is a fraction of what it ever was and 99% of these fellows are constrained by wifely paramters.

Check out the AV90 package - with the application of magic beans and some sharp, Romany commercial practices - you would have near reference quality pressuring of sound levels to enable Russel Crowe's gladiatorial escapades to stand up to an attack of Blue Monday or Lynyrd Skynryrd whilst maintaining enough in the grubby fiver department to whisk swmbo away for a weekend of snails and oysters in Cleethorpes.

[Droptheclutch]

derestrictor said:

Actually, the best you can get is Steinway Lyngdorf but such delusional fancies are like wet dreams o'er underground caverns filled with Leno budget, smörgåsbord plasterings of impossible exotica...

If our man has £250k to spend on speakers I'll melt away but he wants AV with an accent on hifi for £2k.

Listen to Gandalf; he has the facial hair to back up the jive.

The truth is, their are innumerable speakers vying for the affections of what is a tiny market and one which today (certainly in the UK) is a fraction of what it ever was and 99% of these fellows are constrained by wifely paramters.

Check out the AV90 package - with the application of magic beans and some sharp, Romany commercial practices - you would have near reference quality pressuring of sound levels to enable Russel Crowe's gladiatorial escapades to stand up to an attack of Blue Monday or Lynyrd Skynryrd whilst maintaining enough in the grubby fiver department to whisk swmbo away for a weekend of snails and oysters in Cleethorpes.

PML. I enjoy your turn of phrase, DeR.

Must admit, though, some of this techie hifi AV jargon is winging its way along the jet stream for me and as such is a tad over my head, being only 6'3"!

I think I'll have to pay a visit to Manchester...hell, there's a first time for everything!

[Droptheclutch]

Just a quick update and a couple of questions...

I'm looking (seriously) at the Denon AVR-2310 and the Kef AV90 speaker package. Failing that the Monitor Audio BR5 AV Speaker System.

Will the BR5 system cope with the amp side?

I've been speaking to many hifi professionals and have demo'd quite a bit of kit, the only issue being I am constantly fed conflicting information on the receiver side of things. One minute Onkyo is the best, the next it's Denon! Then there's Yamaha, who in PJ Hifi's opinion is "way behind the times" and should not be a consideration. Oh bks, this is doing my head in!

The budget has gone up, mainly due to the receiver. I've been told to spend more money in this department as it's where the best gains are to be had. True, or not?

Many thanks!

DTC

[OldSkoolRS]

Does the Yamaha not do the latest HD decoding? Maybe that's what PJ Hifi meant, but even so if your player does the decoding it's not the end of the world. I'd always read that Yamaha amps tend to be more 'musical' though (rather shallow of me) I never liked the orange display so I didn't look that seriously at buying one myself. I didn't think the MA BR5 was a 'hard' speaker for an amp to drive, though there always was the old Hifi view that you spent more on the amp and less on the speakers and to improve the 'source' rather than putting very good speakers on the end of a cheap amp and player.

If you've been to PJ Hifi and had some demos, what do your ears tell you? Can you hear the difference between different makes and models of amps and if so which do you prefer? If you can't hear it then just buy the one you like the look of/ has the best remote/price....it shouldn't be confussing, but buying gear seems to have become that way (too much choice really). People spend months debating which TV to buy, then bring it home and leave it set to factory defaults...if you deceide which amp to get, are you going to go to the trouble of setting it all up and running the Audyssey/equivalent? Otherwise some of these minor differences (playback of specific HD formats notwithstanding) aren't going to matter much in the end and you're worrying about nothing.

Not trying to put you off, but I hope it puts it into perspective.

[Droptheclutch]

OldSkoolRS said:

Does the Yamaha not do the latest HD decoding? Maybe that's what PJ Hifi meant, but even so if your player does the decoding it's not the end of the world. I'd always read that Yamaha amps tend to be more 'musical' though (rather shallow of me) I never liked the orange display so I didn't look that seriously at buying one myself. I didn't think the MA BR5 was a 'hard' speaker for an amp to drive, though there always was the old Hifi view that you spent more on the amp and less on the speakers and to improve the 'source' rather than putting very good speakers on the end of a cheap amp and player.

If you've been to PJ Hifi and had some demos, what do your ears tell you? Can you hear the difference between different makes and models of amps and if so which do you prefer? If you can't hear it then just buy the one you like the look of/ has the best remote/price....it shouldn't be confussing, but buying gear seems to have become that way (too much choice really). People spend months debating which TV to buy, then bring it home and leave it set to factory defaults...if you deceide which amp to get, are you going to go to the trouble of setting it all up and running the Audyssey/equivalent? Otherwise some of these minor differences (playback of specific HD formats notwithstanding) aren't going to matter much in the end and you're worrying about nothing.

Not trying to put you off, but I hope it puts it into perspective.

Hi OldSkool,

Thanks for the reply.

I will setting up the Av Receiver properly, without a doubt (no point in buying a good one if I don't make use of the features really).

So far I have become a fan of the Monitor Audio speakers as they sound more 'warm' to my ears. I have also listened to Mordaunt Short (spelling?) and a midrange Kef set up. The Kefs sounded a tad harsh and this was not due to them being new as they are older demo speakers.

The amp/av receiver will be either an Onkyo 607 or the Denon 2310, that's a given. Too many fab reviews from a variety of souces to ignore these two offerings. I just need to listen to differen speakers with each I suppose!

I have done the TV deal and now have the 42 inch panny V10 along with a tasty panny blu ray player (the 80 model). Thankfully I didn't take long to make up my mind on that front!

Cheers for the advice and input.

DTC.

[OldSkoolRS]

If you like 'warm' it might be worth trying to find some Acoustic Energy Neo speakers. I used to have some of their previous AE109 floorstanders and they were certainly warm sounding.....so much that it took me ages finding something to give an improvement and a smaller box (PMC DB1+ but that's a little more than you're talking about). The MA speakers (especially the Silver and Gold ranges) are known for being a little on the bright side so I'm surprised at your comments...but maybe the others were brighter still, so it's all relative.

Glad to hear you're planing on setting it all up properly I've read about people buying really expensive projectors and not even adjusting any controls (let alone having it properly calibrated) and thinking that my modest setup is probably giving a better result becasue I've squeezed every last drop out of it with setup and adjusting it correctly.