Bill Shakespear - Was He Any Good ?
Discussion
bad company said:
Or was it a case of 'The Emperers New Clothes' ?
More likely a case of "Right Place, Right Time."He was very lucky in that he was the most popular playwright in Britain at the time that the theatre was de-regulated. As a result I should think that the earlier stories he told may have been extant in an oral tradition, but not well known because of the restrictions put in place previously.
Once his stature grew and he was considered the benchmark, he was able to go a bit off-piste and do some really original work.
Shakespeare is a real enigma, a man of huge intellect and undoubtedly the greatest writer within the English language. A genius unquestionably.
The greatest gift to the English language by Shakespeare was the sheer number of pithy, epithets and phrases, that illustrate our language coming direct from Shakespeare's pen.
It us difficult to see how the Bard of Avon could have gained the knowledge and insight that he did in his life, to write such utterly masterly plays.
The level of detailed knowledge essential to such delicate parodies, based on the English Monarchy, the Court of the Monarch and life ib Foreign countries like Italy in the Two Gentlemen from Verona plays and so on, seem so extensive as to be almost impossible for a simple Englishmen to have absorbed in one lifetime.
Hence my genius reference. There will never be another Shakespeare.
The greatest gift to the English language by Shakespeare was the sheer number of pithy, epithets and phrases, that illustrate our language coming direct from Shakespeare's pen.
It us difficult to see how the Bard of Avon could have gained the knowledge and insight that he did in his life, to write such utterly masterly plays.
The level of detailed knowledge essential to such delicate parodies, based on the English Monarchy, the Court of the Monarch and life ib Foreign countries like Italy in the Two Gentlemen from Verona plays and so on, seem so extensive as to be almost impossible for a simple Englishmen to have absorbed in one lifetime.
Hence my genius reference. There will never be another Shakespeare.
I know he could spell "emperor" (although not his own name).
I think he deserves the accolades given to him. The older I have become, the more I have recognised his ability to put into words the human condition.
When I studied "Romeo and Juliette" I was 16 and I was 18 when I studied "Hamlet" - both great plays. But I was much too young at the time to truly appreciate their content.
Over the past 20 years I have seen all the comedies and some of the tragedies and have really,. really enjoyed them all.
My favourite is probably "The Taming of the Shrew".
I think he deserves the accolades given to him. The older I have become, the more I have recognised his ability to put into words the human condition.
When I studied "Romeo and Juliette" I was 16 and I was 18 when I studied "Hamlet" - both great plays. But I was much too young at the time to truly appreciate their content.
Over the past 20 years I have seen all the comedies and some of the tragedies and have really,. really enjoyed them all.
My favourite is probably "The Taming of the Shrew".
I didn't really 'get' Shakespeare when I did it at school and I still don't. But I assume it all adds up or it wouldn't still be going after 400 years.
I'm surprised though that the original texts have not been superseded by a 'New English' version, rather than the impenetrable Elizabethan prose, forsooth verily god wot?
I'm surprised though that the original texts have not been superseded by a 'New English' version, rather than the impenetrable Elizabethan prose, forsooth verily god wot?
Eric Mc said:
I know he could spell "emperor" (although not his own name).
I think he deserves the accolades given to him. The older I have become, the more I have recognised his ability to put into words the human condition.
When I studied "Romeo and Juliette" I was 16 and I was 18 when I studied "Hamlet" - both great plays. But I was much too young at the time to truly appreciate their content.
Over the past 20 years I have seen all the comedies and some of the tragedies and have really,. really enjoyed them all.
My favourite is probably "The Taming of the Shrew".
Midsummer Night's Dream is my favourite. I think he deserves the accolades given to him. The older I have become, the more I have recognised his ability to put into words the human condition.
When I studied "Romeo and Juliette" I was 16 and I was 18 when I studied "Hamlet" - both great plays. But I was much too young at the time to truly appreciate their content.
Over the past 20 years I have seen all the comedies and some of the tragedies and have really,. really enjoyed them all.
My favourite is probably "The Taming of the Shrew".
The gentle humour is absolutely masterly, I studied Richard the Second and Hamlet, I actually saw (as a child), (a not very interested child!) Richard II with Laurence Olivier in the role, then, years later, the grammar school I attended had his brother as Headmaster initially.
Shakespeare is best appreciated when you have learnt something of life and living. His observation, wit and creative ability was just breathtaking.
Simpo Two said:
I didn't really 'get' Shakespeare when I did it at school and I still don't. But I assume it all adds up or it wouldn't still be going after 400 years.
I'm surprised though that the original texts have not been superseded by a 'New English' version, rather than the impenetrable Elizabethan prose, forsooth verily god wot?
You lose a bit in translation. I'm surprised though that the original texts have not been superseded by a 'New English' version, rather than the impenetrable Elizabethan prose, forsooth verily god wot?
http://amarillo.com/stories/073009/new_news1.shtml
It should be on The Onion really.
williamp said:
of all the different words he used, about 1 in 10: approx 10% of the words he made up. Words like excellent, brilliant etc.
How do we really know what he meant? And if I wrote a play with some made up words they'd think I was a nutter
Probably: but you are not, Shakespeare: There''s the rub.How do we really know what he meant? And if I wrote a play with some made up words they'd think I was a nutter
Simpo Two said:
I didn't really 'get' Shakespeare when I did it at school ?
I didn't get it at school, but took my (14 year old) nephew to Macbeth at the Liverpool Everyman, along with my wife and her sister. It was set in a post modern industrial landscape, and the murders, the violence and the dripping blood were horrific. The adults loved it, and the fact that the stage was so close made it all the better. Nephew (who has aspergers) did not enjoy it. New POD said:
I didn't get it at school, but took my (14 year old) nephew to Macbeth at the Liverpool Everyman, along with my wife and her sister. It was set in a post modern industrial landscape, and the murders, the violence and the dripping blood were horrific. The adults loved it, and the fact that the stage was so close made it all the better. Nephew (who has aspergers) did not enjoy it.
MacBeth is superb, especially the Polanski version. I saw Measure for Measure in Chester, and that was superb. I think you do have to be older in order to get the language. Steffan said:
Shakespeare is a real enigma, a man of huge intellect and undoubtedly the greatest writer within the English language. A genius unquestionably.
The greatest gift to the English language by Shakespeare was the sheer number of pithy, epithets and phrases, that illustrate our language coming direct from Shakespeare's pen.
It us difficult to see how the Bard of Avon could have gained the knowledge and insight that he did in his life, to write such utterly masterly plays.
The level of detailed knowledge essential to such delicate parodies, based on the English Monarchy, the Court of the Monarch and life ib Foreign countries like Italy in the Two Gentlemen from Verona plays and so on, seem so extensive as to be almost impossible for a simple Englishmen to have absorbed in one lifetime.
Hence my genius reference. There will never be another Shakespeare.
The recent and very excellent (thanks Will!) BBC documentary "Last will and Testament" (well worth catching on iPalyer for anyone who missed it) went through this aspect so well. My English Lit 'A' Level teacher was convinced it was Francis Bacon, which I doubt; the case for Oxford seems to have much going for it.The greatest gift to the English language by Shakespeare was the sheer number of pithy, epithets and phrases, that illustrate our language coming direct from Shakespeare's pen.
It us difficult to see how the Bard of Avon could have gained the knowledge and insight that he did in his life, to write such utterly masterly plays.
The level of detailed knowledge essential to such delicate parodies, based on the English Monarchy, the Court of the Monarch and life ib Foreign countries like Italy in the Two Gentlemen from Verona plays and so on, seem so extensive as to be almost impossible for a simple Englishmen to have absorbed in one lifetime.
Hence my genius reference. There will never be another Shakespeare.
Irrespective of who the individual was, of course he was a genius. The range and depth of his work (the poetry is often overlooked but is just stunning), the descriptions of human character and frailty and the innovation mark him out as very special. Of course many of the plot lines were based on previous (many Italian) stories but the origination of the plot isn't really the thing is it, even with his masterful re-direction (and subtle political use of) the story lines they were but a vehicle for the emotional and philosophical aspects that are their core, and key.
Of course the language can be trick and 'get in the way' for a modern reader but worth working through as that was what it was! Let alone standing as an illustration of/insight into language at the time. I really despair when modern or abridged versions are shoe-horned into the curriculum. Pedantic perhaps, but what's the point - can't we expect students today to actually work at something and expand the breadth of their language and knowledge?
Simpo Two said:
I tend to agree - BUT if it only works in Elizabethan English, can it be such a work of genius? Wouldn't a work of genius hold up in any era/language?
But it doesn't just work in Elizabethan English! Even in translation - if done truthfully - the ideas, emotions, story telling etc. all work but it does lose some of the richness, the impact of the language - especially if it hides the innovation he brought and the word mastery he had - and the context, of course. How students today can't follow/get/appreciate stuff such as the one liners, repeat themes and puns in say, Henry V is beyond me. More like people can't be bothered than "can't". I'm too old now! Seen too much of and too sick of the dumbing down I've seen to be tolerant, and 'education', broadly, is my profession so I've seen a lot.
Simpo Two said:
Lost_BMW said:
can't we expect students today to actually work at something and expand the breadth of their language and knowledge?
I tend to agree - BUT if it only works in Elizabethan English, can it be such a work of genius? Wouldn't a work of genius hold up in any era/language?He was popular at the time partly BECAUSE the language and pace of dialogue was actually hard to follow - even for Elizabethans. Don't forget that a large percentage of his audience back then would have been functionally illiterate. I am pretty sure they got a lot of fun and pleasure out of forcing themselves to listen to the dialogue carefully and teasing out the meaning - and working out the jokes and the sarcasm
Oakey said:
Lolz, he didn't write anything, someone else did. I saw a documentary recently about it. 'Anonymous' it was called, some welsh documentarian played the real dude.
Well then, someone else was clearly a genius... whether he be called Wil Shakspere or the 14th Earl of Gurney. A Rose, by any other name, etc...Yes it was. A playwright in those days would turn over several productions a year & re write them on the hoof. He'd also (and it would be a he) run the theatre, the players & just about everything else to do with the business of putting on shows. Today it's a rarefied art form in comparison to the knockabout business of the Elizabethan theatre.
Was he any good? I think so. I'll hand over to that other giant of the stage, Withnail to illustrate the power of Shakespeare's words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zEVZGuU3BU
Was he any good? I think so. I'll hand over to that other giant of the stage, Withnail to illustrate the power of Shakespeare's words.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zEVZGuU3BU
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