Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
Camelot1971 said:
waynecyclist said:
I think it is nuts that a car can have £72k worth of options
And it will lose all that money as soon as you drive it out the showroom. Panel gaps were horrific on a quarter million £ car too.It's a common thing, with highly complex compound surfacing and acute changes of line direction - compounded by the nuances of composite construction.
Camelot1971 said:
And it will lose all that money as soon as you drive it out the showroom. Panel gaps were horrific on a quarter million £ car too.
Panel gaps are always bigger on cars constructed out of composite panels. If you want super-tight panel gaps then buy a steel bodied Audi/BMW/Mercedes. If you want light-weight, low production numbers and clever aero solutions, buy a McLaren and stop worrying about panel gaps!As for the turbos, I wasn’t aware the 720S engine used old-tech turbos, this might partly explain why I found turbo-lag to be much more noticeable in the 720S than the F8. Ferrari also limit the boost pressure in the lower gears and use modern, twin-scroll turbos, which will make a big difference here too.
One surprise I didn't expect during my time with the 720S was how much better it sounded compared to previous McLaren models I've driven. It was certainly more tuneful than the F8 and considerably better than the Roma I had in the other day. Still not a patch on that NA Huracan evo RWD, though..
Would the TD04s be a choice based on reliability?
I feel like this is one of those things that might get a lot of discussion on the internet because an expensive manufacturer is using a relatively inexpensive part that achieves the aims it sets out to achieve - whereas public perception is that all parts on a six-figure car should be made of unobtanium and hideously expensive, lol.
I feel like this is one of those things that might get a lot of discussion on the internet because an expensive manufacturer is using a relatively inexpensive part that achieves the aims it sets out to achieve - whereas public perception is that all parts on a six-figure car should be made of unobtanium and hideously expensive, lol.
RSTurboPaul said:
Would the TD04s be a choice based on reliability?
I feel like this is one of those things that might get a lot of discussion on the internet because an expensive manufacturer is using a relatively inexpensive part that achieves the aims it sets out to achieve - whereas public perception is that all parts on a six-figure car should be made of unobtanium and hideously expensive, lol.
Nope. Journal bearings are not the most reliable things, and they cause additional heat/etc., which in fact is more likely to reduce reliability...I feel like this is one of those things that might get a lot of discussion on the internet because an expensive manufacturer is using a relatively inexpensive part that achieves the aims it sets out to achieve - whereas public perception is that all parts on a six-figure car should be made of unobtanium and hideously expensive, lol.
There's nothing 'hideously expensive' about ball bearings - and there are very clear benefits for normal driving.
There's a reason I said I don't think there's a single car OEM using TD04s any more. In fact I was amazed they could even get new TD04s - I thought Mitsubishi had stopped making them two decades ago!
Type in the actual turbo they're using (TD04HL-20T) and see what cars come up as having them... You're talking old Saab 9-3/Volvo 850 type era!
Also, digging into the rabbit hole - they're using basic 'log' manifolds too! That's the sort of crap that men in sheds have been welding up to stick a turbo on Mk1 MX5s...
Harry - genuinely this is something that might be worth exploring with Mclaren. I would absolutely love to hear their reasoning for such ancient, s
tty tech when you consider their stated ethos and approaches...I'm a huge McLaren fan - yet this whole side of things is utterly ridiculous, and as per your experience it has a direct impact on the driving experience.
thegreenhell said:
Sway said:
Also, digging into the rabbit hole - they're using basic 'log' manifolds too! That's the sort of crap that men in sheds have been welding up to stick a turbo on Mk1 MX5s...
Mercedes used log manifolds on their F1 engine at the start of the current turbo hybrid era.Anything works well when you're at 5-6k rpm plus. You can make a housebrick into a Cold War interceptor if you strap a big enough jet engine on it.
But when a bloody Mini diesel has significantly more advanced (and no more expensive) turbo config - why the bloody hell don't Mclaren? Especially when you consider the engine core architecture has been used across the entire range to date...
There is simply no logical rationale or benefit from it - the exact opposite. Hence why it'd be really interesting to hear from Mcl why they've done it and how they justify it from a driver's perspective.
I suspect the engine tech is down to getting the engine developed by a 3rd Party and then not re-working it since it first came into production - other than changing the power outputs.
The 12C was launched in 2009 so they must have come up with the engine design several years before then, so it is not too outrageous to see turn of the century components being used.
Do McLaren have their own drivetrain development team yet, or is it still all via Ricardo?
The 12C was launched in 2009 so they must have come up with the engine design several years before then, so it is not too outrageous to see turn of the century components being used.
Do McLaren have their own drivetrain development team yet, or is it still all via Ricardo?
Truckosaurus said:
Do McLaren have their own drivetrain development team yet, or is it still all via Ricardo?
Still Ricardo it seems, they signed their third and largest deal a couple of years ago for them to continue producing motors for their ever-increasing range..https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/news-and-press/...
Truckosaurus said:
I suspect the engine tech is down to getting the engine developed by a 3rd Party and then not re-working it since it first came into production - other than changing the power outputs.
The 12C was launched in 2009 so they must have come up with the engine design several years before then, so it is not too outrageous to see turn of the century components being used.
Do McLaren have their own drivetrain development team yet, or is it still all via Ricardo?
You don't need to 'rework' it though.The 12C was launched in 2009 so they must have come up with the engine design several years before then, so it is not too outrageous to see turn of the century components being used.
Do McLaren have their own drivetrain development team yet, or is it still all via Ricardo?
There's 'form/fit/function' replacements available with ball bearings both sides of the housing. They've also continually refreshed and remapped that core architecture, changing capacity, adding hybrid assistance, etc.
As Harry said, McLaren are doing this on their own, there is no one else they can share platforms/parts with. That alone makes any McLaren something more special. The important bits, steering, handling/ride, brakes and driving position, are spot on which is something only McLaren seem to understand at the moment. I can't defend the old turbo tech but Ferrari's still have creaky old chassis' and Porsche have only just discovered double wishbones.
As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
Leftfootwonder said:
As Harry said, McLaren are doing this on their own, there is no one else they can share platforms/parts with. That alone makes any McLaren something more special. The important bits, steering, handling/ride, brakes and driving position, are spot on which is something only McLaren seem to understand at the moment. I can't defend the old turbo tech but Ferrari's still have creaky old chassis' and Porsche have only just discovered double wishbones.
As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
Agreed. The most telling part of this review was how much feel the car delivered and the suppleness of the chassis. More important to me than turbos etc.As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
Venisonpie said:
Leftfootwonder said:
As Harry said, McLaren are doing this on their own, there is no one else they can share platforms/parts with. That alone makes any McLaren something more special. The important bits, steering, handling/ride, brakes and driving position, are spot on which is something only McLaren seem to understand at the moment. I can't defend the old turbo tech but Ferrari's still have creaky old chassis' and Porsche have only just discovered double wishbones.
As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
Agreed. The most telling part of this review was how much feel the car delivered and the suppleness of the chassis. More important to me than turbos etc.As ever, it is different strokes for different folks but for me, McLaren are making hugely desirable performance cars and continue to put the establishment on the back foot in many areas.
However, I'm also one of those really finickity people that really, really prioritised throttle pedal feel and response. I am yet to drive a turbo car that I actually like the pedal on.
Designing a composite chassis is really f
king difficult. They've done amazing.Yet, for all that, the emerging reporting about throttle response and turbo lag (and it is emerging - this is stuff that was completely missing from earlier generation reviews, or is now claimed to 'have always been their weak spot') genuinely completely puts me off the cars.
Yet, it's really easily solved, for perhaps under £100 difference in the BoM cost...
For me, it's like being asked back to Scarlett Johanssen's bedroom, only to find she's not washed her fanny for weeks. A completely avoidable way to completely put me off.
Sway said:
I'll repeat - I'm an immense Mclaren fan, they are the only supercar manufacturer producing anything I'm interested in for many of the reasons you state.
However, I'm also one of those really finickity people that really, really prioritised throttle pedal feel and response. I am yet to drive a turbo car that I actually like the pedal on.
Designing a composite chassis is really fking difficult. They've done amazing.
Yet, for all that, the emerging reporting about throttle response and turbo lag (and it is emerging - this is stuff that was completely missing from earlier generation reviews, or is now claimed to 'have always been their weak spot') genuinely completely puts me off the cars.
Yet, it's really easily solved, for perhaps under £100 difference in the BoM cost...
For me, it's like being asked back to Scarlett Johanssen's bedroom, only to find she's not washed her fanny for weeks. A completely avoidable way to completely put me off.
So even if they changed the turbo, you still wouldn't like it?However, I'm also one of those really finickity people that really, really prioritised throttle pedal feel and response. I am yet to drive a turbo car that I actually like the pedal on.
Designing a composite chassis is really f
king difficult. They've done amazing.Yet, for all that, the emerging reporting about throttle response and turbo lag (and it is emerging - this is stuff that was completely missing from earlier generation reviews, or is now claimed to 'have always been their weak spot') genuinely completely puts me off the cars.
Yet, it's really easily solved, for perhaps under £100 difference in the BoM cost...
For me, it's like being asked back to Scarlett Johanssen's bedroom, only to find she's not washed her fanny for weeks. A completely avoidable way to completely put me off.
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