The Vietnam war BBC4
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
The West have defeated irregular forces previously e.g. Malaya. The VC were essentially defeated during the Tet offensive
If the VC were supported by the majority of the South Vietnamese civilian population then why didn't the latter rise up against the Americans during the Tet offensive? This being one of the major objectives of the offensive.
You can defeat irregulars, but not when a large proportion of the population support them.If the VC were supported by the majority of the South Vietnamese civilian population then why didn't the latter rise up against the Americans during the Tet offensive? This being one of the major objectives of the offensive.
The Americans never embraced "Hearts and Minds" as a strategy, although even for the British that failed in Iraq.
If you watched the programme, you'd know that Tet failed because the NC/VC believed the South Vietnamese would rise up against the Americans and their leaders. At the time, the majority were still more fearful of North Vietnam (probably rightly so).
After the Americans lost the will to send their young men to die in a war they never really believed they'd win, things got so bad in S.Vietnam that many (most?) people believed that anything was better than the war and the ARVN melted away to go home to feed their families rather than carry on fighting against a better trained, numerically equipped and ideologically brainwashed opposition.
It was all in the programme...
M
And that is the main reason why the Communists failed in Malaya. The British did a good job there but on the whole, the locals did not embrace the ideology of the "freedom fighters" and therefore they did not get the support the Viet Cong received in South Vietnam.
The real tragedy of the war in South East Asia was not just the massive death toll and the length it lasted, but also the devastating effect it had on neighbouring countries such as Laos and Cambodia.
The real tragedy of the war in South East Asia was not just the massive death toll and the length it lasted, but also the devastating effect it had on neighbouring countries such as Laos and Cambodia.
Eric Mc said:
If, if, if.
It didn't and Vietnam is what it is now. For the Vietnamese today, they have a peaceful and fairly prosperous (by their standards) country. So, given the choice, most Vietnamese with prefer 2017 to 1967.
Vietnam's postwar economic progress 1973 - 2017 has been markedly slower than that of West Germany 1945 - 1989 and South Korea 1953 - 1997. Most countries experience a post war boom, Vietnam didn't until the shackles of communism were loosened.It didn't and Vietnam is what it is now. For the Vietnamese today, they have a peaceful and fairly prosperous (by their standards) country. So, given the choice, most Vietnamese with prefer 2017 to 1967.
marcosgt said:
V8 Fettler said:
The West have defeated irregular forces previously e.g. Malaya. The VC were essentially defeated during the Tet offensive
If the VC were supported by the majority of the South Vietnamese civilian population then why didn't the latter rise up against the Americans during the Tet offensive? This being one of the major objectives of the offensive.
You can defeat irregulars, but not when a large proportion of the population support them.If the VC were supported by the majority of the South Vietnamese civilian population then why didn't the latter rise up against the Americans during the Tet offensive? This being one of the major objectives of the offensive.
The Americans never embraced "Hearts and Minds" as a strategy, although even for the British that failed in Iraq.
If you watched the programme, you'd know that Tet failed because the NC/VC believed the South Vietnamese would rise up against the Americans and their leaders. At the time, the majority were still more fearful of North Vietnam (probably rightly so).
After the Americans lost the will to send their young men to die in a war they never really believed they'd win, things got so bad in S.Vietnam that many (most?) people believed that anything was better than the war and the ARVN melted away to go home to feed their families rather than carry on fighting against a better trained, numerically equipped and ideologically brainwashed opposition.
It was all in the programme...
M
V8 Fettler said:
Vietnam's postwar economic progress 1973 - 2017 has been markedly slower than that of West Germany 1945 - 1989 and South Korea 1953 - 1997. Most countries experience a post war boom, Vietnam didn't until the shackles of communism were loosened.
Which shows that Communist idealism was never the prime motivator.V8 Fettler said:
Did the majority of the South Vietnamese support the VC or not?
Some definitely did. Some didn't and many were ambivalent. What is obvious though is that they did not have huge confidence in the various shysters and crooks that ran the South Vietnamese government over the decades between 1956 and 1975.V8 Fettler said:
Vietnam's postwar economic progress 1973 - 2017 has been markedly slower than that of West Germany 1945 - 1989 and South Korea 1953 - 1997. Most countries experience a post war boom, Vietnam didn't until the shackles of communism were loosened.
There are different ‘strengths’ of Communism/Socialism around the globe. China are still technically communist but look at their economy now. Growth outstrips the USA.Eric Mc said:
V8 Fettler said:
Vietnam's postwar economic progress 1973 - 2017 has been markedly slower than that of West Germany 1945 - 1989 and South Korea 1953 - 1997. Most countries experience a post war boom, Vietnam didn't until the shackles of communism were loosened.
Which shows that Communist idealism was never the prime motivator.If there was substantial support amongst the South Vietnamese for the VC then why was there so little support by the former for the latter during the Tet offensive? The logical answer is that the South Vietnamese did not generally support the VC.
gadgetmac said:
V8 Fettler said:
Vietnam's postwar economic progress 1973 - 2017 has been markedly slower than that of West Germany 1945 - 1989 and South Korea 1953 - 1997. Most countries experience a post war boom, Vietnam didn't until the shackles of communism were loosened.
There are different ‘strengths’ of Communism/Socialism around the globe. China are still technically communist but look at their economy now. Growth outstrips the USA.China is certainly a dragon now that the shackles of communism have been loosened. Imagine what China could have achieved if Mao and his cronies had been overthrown in favour of capitalism in - say - 1950 i.e. before Mao and his cronies had started to inflict starvation on millions of Chinese.
(The US is a mature economy, it's unlikely to see substantial levels of annual growth).
V8 Fettler said:
it shows that Vietnam would probably have experienced a post war boom if the US had prevailed. Communism was a one trick pony: quite good at destroying the Nazis.
If there was substantial support amongst the South Vietnamese for the VC then why was there so little support by the former for the latter during the Tet offensive? The logical answer is that the South Vietnamese did not generally support the VC.
After 30 years of war they were just tired of it all. And, as the final episode showed, the ten years between 1975 and 1985 were not a bed of roses for anybody in Vietnam even though the war was over. What wasn't mentioned much at all in the series were the campaigns in Laos and Cambodia, which were directly related to the war.If there was substantial support amongst the South Vietnamese for the VC then why was there so little support by the former for the latter during the Tet offensive? The logical answer is that the South Vietnamese did not generally support the VC.
I watched the last episode yesterday and it was incredibly poignant and sad.
Excellent documentary. I wouldn't mind getting the boxset this coming Xmas as so much could have been expanded upon.
I'm surprised Norman Morrison wasn't mentioned at all in Beeb's cut. He was a Quaker who immolated himself outside the Pentagon. Robert McNamara managed to see it as it was outside his office. IIRC he mentions this in the documentary Fog Of War. Another feature doc worth watching and made at the time of the war is Hearts and Minds.
I'm surprised Norman Morrison wasn't mentioned at all in Beeb's cut. He was a Quaker who immolated himself outside the Pentagon. Robert McNamara managed to see it as it was outside his office. IIRC he mentions this in the documentary Fog Of War. Another feature doc worth watching and made at the time of the war is Hearts and Minds.
Blaster72 said:
Just watched the last Episode and have now finished the whole series. That last Episode was a hard watch.
We just don't learn do we. (We being humans).
I’m halfway through watching “We were soldiers”, for the fourth or fifth time. Telegrams delivered by taxi, to the wives of dead soldiers, breaking the bad news....seriously fWe just don't learn do we. (We being humans).
ked up, if it is indeed the way it was done.....Like all war, Vietnam was a shameful and disgusting abomination that we should have learned never to do again.
King Herald said:
Telegrams delivered by taxi, to the wives of dead soldiers, breaking the bad news....seriously fked up, if it is indeed the way it was done.....
How else should it have been done?ked up, if it is indeed the way it was done.....Telegrams (and originally letters) were the usual way of formal notifications for all wars from the mid 19th century onwards.
I don't think there's any good way of telling someone they have lost a loved one..
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