Mr Bates vs The Post Office

[520TORQUES]

TTmonkey said:

So Fujitsu not only entered the SPM accounts, ‘correcting’ balances and adding transactions, but were also able to create new digital signatures which were used to prove that the accounts could not have been altered.

That’s more than simply changing data. That’s covering your tracks. That’s all sorts of other criminal activity surely.

We have to know whether this was done under the direction and knowledge of the Post Office management, or whether it was just done by the supplier alone and not reported. And if it’s the supplier only, we have to know who was giving the order to do that.

The reason they changed the name back to the SPM after making a change to the data was because the software wouldn't process the batch unless all the changes were made by the SPM account.

It wasn't the case Fujitsu were covering that change up, it was a function of the software being written to stop processing by the wrong owner of the data as a good practice, not then allowing the fix of other issues with the data.

What should have happened is the software would be rewritten, to allow the support team to make changes that could then be processed legitimately, but that would take too long to fix the immediate issue of their crap software not being able to do primary school mathematics, so they used a work around which hid the true enter of the data.

It all comes back to shambolic design and implementation of the system with regards to data integrity and audit records.

This is separate to the issues of everything else that unfolded around the way prosecutions were carried out.

[FiF]

this is absolutely effing ludicrous. Alleged letter which Staunton claims told him to go slow has been produced. Maybe there is other evidence somewhere, we shall see.



You'll see the part that the asshats have highlighted, about effective financial management.

Completely ignores point 3 which talks specifically about Horizon IT inquiry and reaching settlement with claimants,

Whoever produced this letter as some sort of silver bullet to shoot Badenoch needs a kick in the sponge.

Key could well be contents of any discussion which followed that letter. Rats in a sack.

[blueg33]

FiF said:

this is absolutely effing ludicrous. Alleged letter which Staunton claims told him to go slow has been produced. Maybe there is other evidence somewhere, we shall see.



You'll see the part that the asshats have highlighted, about effective financial management.

Completely ignores point 3 which talks specifically about Horizon IT inquiry and reaching settlement with claimants,

Whoever produced this letter as some sort of silver bullet to shoot Badenoch needs a kick in the sponge.

Key could well be contents of any discussion which followed that letter. Rats in a sack.

That letter is pretty much what every brief to a Chair and CEO says.

Certainly doesn’t look like a smoking gun. How do we know which liar to believe?

[Vasco]

On balance I'd say that Badenoch is in the right. He is simply coming over (to me at least) as an old guy with a chip on his shoulder.

[AstonZagato]

blueg33 said:

FiF said:

this is absolutely effing ludicrous. Alleged letter which Staunton claims told him to go slow has been produced. Maybe there is other evidence somewhere, we shall see.



You'll see the part that the asshats have highlighted, about effective financial management.

Completely ignores point 3 which talks specifically about Horizon IT inquiry and reaching settlement with claimants,

Whoever produced this letter as some sort of silver bullet to shoot Badenoch needs a kick in the sponge.

Key could well be contents of any discussion which followed that letter. Rats in a sack.

That letter is pretty much what every brief to a Chair and CEO says.

Certainly doesn’t look like a smoking gun. How do we know which liar to believe?

That looks like it exonerates the govenrment/civil service rather than incriminating them. Rather feels like he is lashing out because he was sacked.

[Wills2]

Reading that you could make a case that they were telling him to back off on the expensive lawyers (first bullet point) and settle the claims (3rd bullet point)

[andyA700]

Vasco said:

On balance I'd say that Badenoch is in the right. He is simply coming over (to me at least) as an old guy with a chip on his shoulder.

I agree, I am not a Tory, but I don't see how Kemi Badenoch can be blamed for anything.

[Bonefish Blues]

andyA700 said:

Vasco said:

On balance I'd say that Badenoch is in the right. He is simply coming over (to me at least) as an old guy with a chip on his shoulder.

I agree, I am not a Tory, but I don't see how Kemi Badenoch can be blamed for this particular anything.

EFA

[FiF]

Just in case anyone needed any confirmation that Keir Starmer is an idiot, at PMs questions today he asserted that the note posted earlier in the thread directly contradicts Badenoch's statement to the House on Monday.

I don't want to sink into the level of the two sided project fear debate developing in the run up to the next general election but really, is that the level of understanding of someone who wants to be the next PM? Nation is screwed.

The Tory party need to be knocked down, ripped apart and rebuilt, Labour likewise, Lib Dems that too, SNP, yep again just do it, Plaid Cymru, probably likewise. Plague on all their houses.

[Vasco]

FiF said:

Just in case anyone needed any confirmation that Keir Starmer is an idiot, at PMs questions today he asserted that the note posted earlier in the thread directly contradicts Badenoch's statement to the House on Monday.

I don't want to sink into the level of the two sided project fear debate developing in the run up to the next general election but really, is that the level of understanding of someone who wants to be the next PM? Nation is screwed.

The Tory party need to be knocked down, ripped apart and rebuilt, Labour likewise, Lib Dems that too, SNP, yep again just do it, Plaid Cymru, probably likewise. Plague on all their houses.

Good summary......

[Fastpedeller]

AstonZagato said:

blueg33 said:

FiF said:

this is absolutely effing ludicrous. Alleged letter which Staunton claims told him to go slow has been produced. Maybe there is other evidence somewhere, we shall see.



You'll see the part that the asshats have highlighted, about effective financial management.

Completely ignores point 3 which talks specifically about Horizon IT inquiry and reaching settlement with claimants,

Whoever produced this letter as some sort of silver bullet to shoot Badenoch needs a kick in the sponge.

Key could well be contents of any discussion which followed that letter. Rats in a sack.

That letter is pretty much what every brief to a Chair and CEO says.

Certainly doesn’t look like a smoking gun. How do we know which liar to believe?

That looks like it exonerates the govenrment/civil service rather than incriminating them. Rather feels like he is lashing out because he was sacked.

But who knows what (if) any directive was given verbally?

[FiF]

Fastpedeller said:

AstonZagato said:

blueg33 said:

FiF said:

this is absolutely effing ludicrous. Alleged letter which Staunton claims told him to go slow has been produced. Maybe there is other evidence somewhere, we shall see.



You'll see the part that the asshats have highlighted, about effective financial management.

Completely ignores point 3 which talks specifically about Horizon IT inquiry and reaching settlement with claimants,

Whoever produced this letter as some sort of silver bullet to shoot Badenoch needs a kick in the sponge.

Key could well be contents of any discussion which followed that letter. Rats in a sack.

That letter is pretty much what every brief to a Chair and CEO says.

Certainly doesn’t look like a smoking gun. How do we know which liar to believe?

That looks like it exonerates the govenrment/civil service rather than incriminating them. Rather feels like he is lashing out because he was sacked.

But who knows what (if) any directive was given verbally?

Well the Permanent Under Secretary has published a response including notes of the conversation.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24436342-p...

[b0rk]

Fastpedeller said:

But who knows what (if) any directive was given verbally?

You would surely follow up with a as discussed / as agreed letter or email setting out your understanding of the position. If you discussed such a directive. It’s always been how I’ve seen things done in the commercial world to ensure there is a later paper trail for any potential dispute over what was or wasn’t said.

I’d expect the civil service would minute any formal meeting anyway as a matter of policy.

[blueg33]

FiF said:

Well the Permanent Under Secretary has published a response including notes of the conversation.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24436342-p...

Easy to do retrospectively.

I think the fact people feel we can’t believe any of them is a serious indictment of government and civil service in the uk at the moment.

[Mercdriver]

They are going to have to build a new prison for all the people who are going to be convicted, hopefully

[hidetheelephants]

blueg33 said:

FiF said:

Well the Permanent Under Secretary has published a response including notes of the conversation.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24436342-p...

Easy to do retrospectively.

I think the fact people feel we can’t believe any of them is a serious indictment of government and civil service in the uk at the moment.

It's mostly Badenoch being a massive liar that makes me think she's a massive liar.

[blueg33]

hidetheelephants said:

blueg33 said:

FiF said:

Well the Permanent Under Secretary has published a response including notes of the conversation.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24436342-p...

Easy to do retrospectively.

I think the fact people feel we can’t believe any of them is a serious indictment of government and civil service in the uk at the moment.

It's mostly Badenoch being a massive liar that makes me think she's a massive liar.

Indeed she has form. But in this case, I really can’t tell and have zero trust in anyone involved apart from the SPM’s the enquiry barristers and Sir Wynn

[siremoon]

hidetheelephants said:

It's mostly Badenoch being a massive liar that makes me think she's a massive liar.

So let me see if I've got this. Senior PO executives have been lying, including possibly committing perjury, for over a decade and doing everything possible to slow down compensation claims and blame everyone else. Yet you'd have us believe that this guy is being honest when blaming someone else for delaying tactics? Yeah right. With your talent for presenting the wholly improbable you should go and work for the PO. I hear they're likely to have a few managerial vacancies before too long.

[hidetheelephants]

siremoon said:

hidetheelephants said:

It's mostly Badenoch being a massive liar that makes me think she's a massive liar.

So let me see if I've got this. Senior PO executives have been lying, including possibly committing perjury, for over a decade and doing everything possible to slow down compensation claims and blame everyone else. Yet you'd have us believe that this guy is being honest when blaming someone else for delaying tactics? Yeah right. With your talent for presenting the wholly improbable you should go and work for the PO. I hear they're likely to have a few managerial vacancies before too long.

I have no special knowledge about the honesty or otherwise of PO execs other than as shown in the inquiry, some of the testimony has been purest jackanory; Badenoch on the other hand lies like a cheap watch.

[smifffymoto]

What disturbs me the most is how many people have lied and covered up the wrong doings of the Post Office and Fujitsu all for a pay packet.

The destruction off post master’s lives wasn’t a consideration,even when the whole sorry saga began to unravel.