Mr Bates vs The Post Office
Discussion
vaud said:
Yes and I think she is accountable. I'm just not 100% it was a premeditated and organised coverup. I suspect mass incompetence in a dysfunctional organisation.
I 100% agree that she should be held to account.
There's only plausible deniability up to the point Second Sight told them Horizon was a crock and everyone was in the sI 100% agree that she should be held to account.
t up to their necks, after that it's all malice and arse-covering.Jane MacLeod has provided a witness statement: https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/eviden...
Ken_Code said:
I took over the equities division of an investment bank once. I sat down with everyone with any seniority and asked them about present or historic issues,
I read write-ups of technical systems, communications with regulators, used the booking systems myself, asked for any known weaknesses, and so on.
What I did not do was to assume that unless someone brought an issue to my attention that all was fine.
This should be normal, and expected.
I took on a national office for an investment bank. Sitting within it was a "highly profitable" derivatives unit. I asked for transparency on their positions and risks and was frustrated at every turn by the local management, global management, risk management (who were appointed by the derivatives unit).I read write-ups of technical systems, communications with regulators, used the booking systems myself, asked for any known weaknesses, and so on.
What I did not do was to assume that unless someone brought an issue to my attention that all was fine.
This should be normal, and expected.
I sent a memo to all concerned that as I had no oversight, I had no responsibility. I was happy to be a 'hotel manager', ensuring they had desks and paperclips but nothing to do with their P&L. I made it clear to the global head my department that the obstruction suggested something was not right. I carefully filed those away. When three years later the global derivatives team blew up spectacularly, wiping out all past 'profits" and huge chunks of the banks reserves, those memos saved my career.
Companies regulated by the FCA or PRA now have the Senior Managers Regime (since 2018). This is designed to make sure that people cannot blame someone else or say they didn't know. At the very least, they have to demonstrate how they took action, or 'reasonable steps' to perform their role and seek out information.
I believe that one recommendation from this inquiry should be a similar framework for certain types of non-financially regulated organisations.
I believe that one recommendation from this inquiry should be a similar framework for certain types of non-financially regulated organisations.
Edited by CharlesElliott on Saturday 25th May 21:46
CharlesElliott said:
Companies regulated by the FCA or PRA now have the Senior Managers Regime (since 2018). This is designed to make sure that people cannot blame someone else or say they didn't know. At the very least, they have to demonstrate how they took action, or 'reasonable steps' to perform their role and seek out information.
I believe that one recommendation from this inquiry should be a similar framework for certain types of non-financially regulated organisations.
Given POL offers banking services would these rules not have applied?I believe that one recommendation from this inquiry should be a similar framework for certain types of non-financially regulated organisations.
AstonZagato said:
I took on a national office for an investment bank. Sitting within it was a "highly profitable" derivatives unit. I asked for transparency on their positions and risks and was frustrated at every turn by the local management, global management, risk management (who were appointed by the derivatives unit).
I sent a memo to all concerned that as I had no oversight, I had no responsibility. I was happy to be a 'hotel manager', ensuring they had desks and paperclips but nothing to do with their P&L. I made it clear to the global head my department that the obstruction suggested something was not right. I carefully filed those away. When three years later the global derivatives team blew up spectacularly, wiping out all past 'profits" and huge chunks of the banks reserves, those memos saved my career.
I’m really surprised at that. My CEO had full details of absolutely everything, if not in real-time, then each day at the close of business.I sent a memo to all concerned that as I had no oversight, I had no responsibility. I was happy to be a 'hotel manager', ensuring they had desks and paperclips but nothing to do with their P&L. I made it clear to the global head my department that the obstruction suggested something was not right. I carefully filed those away. When three years later the global derivatives team blew up spectacularly, wiping out all past 'profits" and huge chunks of the banks reserves, those memos saved my career.
Ken_Code said:
AstonZagato said:
I took on a national office for an investment bank. Sitting within it was a "highly profitable" derivatives unit. I asked for transparency on their positions and risks and was frustrated at every turn by the local management, global management, risk management (who were appointed by the derivatives unit).
I sent a memo to all concerned that as I had no oversight, I had no responsibility. I was happy to be a 'hotel manager', ensuring they had desks and paperclips but nothing to do with their P&L. I made it clear to the global head my department that the obstruction suggested something was not right. I carefully filed those away. When three years later the global derivatives team blew up spectacularly, wiping out all past 'profits" and huge chunks of the banks reserves, those memos saved my career.
I’m really surprised at that. My CEO had full details of absolutely everything, if not in real-time, then each day at the close of business.I sent a memo to all concerned that as I had no oversight, I had no responsibility. I was happy to be a 'hotel manager', ensuring they had desks and paperclips but nothing to do with their P&L. I made it clear to the global head my department that the obstruction suggested something was not right. I carefully filed those away. When three years later the global derivatives team blew up spectacularly, wiping out all past 'profits" and huge chunks of the banks reserves, those memos saved my career.
Bonefish Blues said:
Article on the inability of the Inquiry to compel McLeod to appear
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/refusenik-solici...
There's also the (Davies?) guy who came up during PV's questioning as being 'missing', who the enquiry has been unable to locate!https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/refusenik-solici...
Fastpedeller said:
Bonefish Blues said:
Article on the inability of the Inquiry to compel McLeod to appear
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/refusenik-solici...
There's also the (Davies?) guy who came up during PV's questioning as being 'missing', who the enquiry has been unable to locate!https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/refusenik-solici...
Thought he gave evidence?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/crgyyedx4lzt
There was someone they failed to find. Maybe it was another Davies?
CoolHands said:
I think incompetence is a get out and not true. They knew since I think about 2010 it had bugs and could be edited from outside the SPM system. They did things to cover it up - stopped second sight in their tracks. She knew. Look at how she framed her answer to the poor guy that walked in front of a bus. She knew but didn’t want to know, and hence the continual reorganisations and change ‘projects’ etc. Alan Bates had written directly to her, Private eye and computer world had published articles on this st show at the time.
I think Rudyard gives us a great line when it comes to PVs testimony in that it was "Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools" t show at the time.Just about every single one of the senior POL staff we've seen take the stand wants us to believe they were merely incompetent, now some were, but those close to the action were not.
They conspired to frame the SPMs for the issues with Horizon, to save their jobs but as with all lies it got bigger and bigger and more and more serious and they wouldn't/couldn't stop as they were in too deep.
For me it's analogous to Nick Leeson and Barings bank, it all started with one little cover up...
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