Automotive Vloggers (Vol. 4)
Discussion
Mark-E34-535 said:
Mark-E34-535 said:
Does anyone here know whether that silly Zenvo wing actually helps achieve a hike in performance? It's just I would have thought consistency in downforce would be preferable over something that changes aspect every split second or so?
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a21081048/zenvos-tsrs-rear-wing-analysis/
Throttlebody said:
The culture will change when peoples mindset changes from ‘owning’ or ‘buying’ to what they are actually doing which is ‘renting’.
It's all semantics and pedantry really though!Then there is also the legal difference between "owner", "keeper" and "Registered Keeper".
Three very distinct entities who may or may not be the same three individuals or businesses, and often the vehicle is controlled by a 4th entity of "driver"
When it comes to processing fines and penalty charges, knowing the difference is crucial to ensuring the correct entity is liable..
S11Steve said:
itlab said:
But the values of 25 RRs should be fairly easy to work out
They have been selling 100000s of them a year for decades
How do you even begin to calculate the residuals on something like this
A company making less than 5 a year and less than 24 in the last 12 years and with seemingly no long wait times for a new one they can’t exactly have a huge second hand market.
Even the stuff though thought of as rare like F50s were made in the triple figures or 250gtos that have years of sales to extrapolate values from
It’s goes back to the phrase
It’s only worth what some one is willing to pay
With a market that small the second hand values must fluctuate massively as each sale is different or take a looooong time to find a buyer. (He mentioned getting his in left hand drive as I image you could count the potential buyers for a right hand drive on one hand)
I’m guessing it would take a very brave finance company be able to offer competitive finance on it.
But I’m sure there’s a Video in Tim’s spreadsheet of plans to cover all of this.
To a degree that's correct - RR are a known product, but we are also doing the same exercise with many different EV's which are a bit more complex and unknown, but there are many financial analysts around the world who specialise in vehicle residual values, by calculating the factors that make something worth what anybody is willing to pay. They have been selling 100000s of them a year for decades
How do you even begin to calculate the residuals on something like this
A company making less than 5 a year and less than 24 in the last 12 years and with seemingly no long wait times for a new one they can’t exactly have a huge second hand market.
Even the stuff though thought of as rare like F50s were made in the triple figures or 250gtos that have years of sales to extrapolate values from
It’s goes back to the phrase
It’s only worth what some one is willing to pay
With a market that small the second hand values must fluctuate massively as each sale is different or take a looooong time to find a buyer. (He mentioned getting his in left hand drive as I image you could count the potential buyers for a right hand drive on one hand)
I’m guessing it would take a very brave finance company be able to offer competitive finance on it.
But I’m sure there’s a Video in Tim’s spreadsheet of plans to cover all of this.
Granted, spec mileage and condition will be more of a factor than a BMW 320d for example, but the principles are much the same
It is lot more scientific than we probably give credit for, but when CAP will list fairly rare exotics like this and update them monthly, I'm fairly confident that a supercar funding provider will know how to manage their risks on things like a Zenvo or Senna.
Anyway, that was more than 10 years ago, so things might have changed, and I'm sure I've forgotten some things, but back then when it came to valuing a rare asset, be it a low volume car or a bespoke quarrying machine we'd use an agency to assign a residual value to it.
It was a bit of a staged process because it could be quite expensive. You'd do the usual soft underwriting, can they afford it? Do they pay their bills on time? etc. Then you'd try to find example of similar assets being sold in the last few years, but with the F1 it was impossible, McLaren were still involved in finding new owners for them and it was all still a bit hush-hush, not to mention they vary quite a lot depending on exact spec, who owned it previously, where in the production run it was etc.
So F1 buyer passed all the normal underwriting stuff, so it was passed to the agency for a value and estimated 'deprecation curve' , that was relatively cheap £500 or so, but if you didn't get it, it was a £500 loss so you had to keep that in mind. With that you could offer the finance and quote it.
As above, I lost the F1 deal, but if it had gone ahead the Underwriter at HQ would have to decide whether it was worth having the agency guarantee their figure. In other words, pay them a hefty fee and in return if this asset that they say will never depreciate, does AND the customer defaults on the finance and we end up taking a loss, they cover it, like CAP insurance for finance companies.
Supercars and Hypercars weren't a great asset for finance companies, not to HNWIs anyway. Customers borrowing hundreds of thousands or even millions will obviously want razor sharp rates, there were a lot more expenses to consider than just another 911 deal and it seemed every finance house and broker in the country would be quoting on it. You'd make more money financing Tractors or Printing Presses.
Our Underwriters were always very conservative, back then Supercar Clubs were becoming big business and they hated them, it's party why I lost the Veyron deal I think and we'd often be approached by people claiming to be HNWI or 'Independently wealthy' trying to fund Supercars, only to find out it was for a Club. I suspect they'd hate YTers now. Film and TV Production companies were considered very high risk back then, and if Shmee LTD or however it's run approached us, they'd have to have a healthy balance sheet and net worth, not just invoices to YT for £10k a month or whatever. They're all only one scandal away from oblivion really.
Snowflake central.waynecyclist said:
Purso said:
waynecyclist said:
Really interesting read, pointless then really
It looks so weird when its going round the corners!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
When he got the long term loaners from BMW (I can only remember the M5 and M8... there could be more) his original video announcing it was titled something along the lines of 'I'M GETTING A....' rather than 'I'M BUYING A....' As the Zenvo is titled as the latter I think it's safe to assume some (if not all) of his own money is going towards it, either renting, buying outright, on finance, with or without a discount etc. How someone pays for their car isn't of much interest to me, but I'd still consider it theirs if they're paying towards it.
P-Jay said:
A lot of very interesting stuff about asset finance, including:...
Our Underwriters were always very conservative, back then Supercar Clubs were becoming big business and they hated them, it's party why I lost the Veyron deal I think and we'd often be approached by people claiming to be HNWI or 'Independently wealthy' trying to fund Supercars, only to find out it was for a Club. I suspect they'd hate YTers now. Film and TV Production companies were considered very high risk back then, and if Shmee LTD or however it's run approached us, they'd have to have a healthy balance sheet and net worth, not just invoices to YT for £10k a month or whatever. They're all only one scandal away from oblivion really.
Was there less concern about the borrower's finances if there was a large deposit, so providing the underwriter with much better asset cover for their exposure, or would they still want to ensure a solvent and secure borrower because they wouldn't want the hassle of realising the asset?Our Underwriters were always very conservative, back then Supercar Clubs were becoming big business and they hated them, it's party why I lost the Veyron deal I think and we'd often be approached by people claiming to be HNWI or 'Independently wealthy' trying to fund Supercars, only to find out it was for a Club. I suspect they'd hate YTers now. Film and TV Production companies were considered very high risk back then, and if Shmee LTD or however it's run approached us, they'd have to have a healthy balance sheet and net worth, not just invoices to YT for £10k a month or whatever. They're all only one scandal away from oblivion really.
waremark said:
Was there less concern about the borrower's finances if there was a large deposit, so providing the underwriter with much better asset cover for their exposure, or would they still want to ensure a solvent and secure borrower because they wouldn't want the hassle of realising the asset?
Not quite in the same league, but we will look subjectively at all facts and figures before deciding a headroom limit. If we are funding £1m of vehicles to a business, we need to be sure of who we are dealing with, their asset worth, their earnings etc. Having managed a number of repo's over the years (and a large one of 20+ vehicles at the moment) it is obviously a consideration, but in reality it is a fairly exceptional scenario.
But we do have also customers who we know we can trust implicitly - if they wanted £1m of vehicles, we'd source the assets first and ask about money later.
I can't think the overall principles would not be too much different in Tims scenario.
Just throwing this into the mix but maybe him "buying" a Zenvo could secretly be a you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours sort of thing?
As some have said on here they've only sold 24 cars in the last 12 years, and maybe having a big hitter like shmee on board that kind of promotes the brand gets him a Zenvo at a reduced cost to him?
He has admitted in the past though at buying a car and it not turning out the way he had thought in terms of views etc, so he doesn't always get it right.
As some have said on here they've only sold 24 cars in the last 12 years, and maybe having a big hitter like shmee on board that kind of promotes the brand gets him a Zenvo at a reduced cost to him?
He has admitted in the past though at buying a car and it not turning out the way he had thought in terms of views etc, so he doesn't always get it right.
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