Mr Bates vs The Post Office

[The Hypno-Toad]

Boringvolvodriver said:

PRTVR said:

I would be very surprised if anyone gets jail time, no matter how much they deserve it,

the government has stated that the prisons are full and not to arrest large numbers of people, sadly they will not be seen as a threat to society so will not serve time.

Notwithstanding that jail time should be appropriate imo, I would accept a guilty verdict followed by removal of all pensions and repayment of bonus payments received.

Won’t happen though

But don’t worry, LESSONS WILL BE LEARNED. Which will make everything alright because it always does.

[Short Grain]

Public Humiliation over her 3 days being questioned by Mr Beer is a good start though!

[mikeiow]

Sway said:

Mojooo said:

The reality is though 8/10 on here would probably have behaved the same way as the PO people if they were in their shoes.

You really think 80% of people would actively destroy people's lives purely to cover up a vendor providing a system that was flawed?

Indeed. What utter nonsense.

PV is a cruel witch of a human who clearly climbed her slippery career ladder without really giving a st about her responsibilities, taking the money without regard to the suffering she caused.

Like others here, I suspect she will never see jail time, so I hope she suffers in as many other ways as possible in her life.

What she presided over (& quite clearly knew) was pure evil. Someone who climbed the pole within the church too: speaks volumes about some religious people. Awful.

[Maxdecel]

LimmerickLad said:

RichB said:

C n C said:

Sir Wyn - WHY?

If you need time to think about out, you can tell me in the morning.

Brilliant.

I'm on catchup.........brilliant indeed.

Touché Sir Wyn, I missed that live. Really admire his attitude.

[skwdenyer]

Mojooo said:

The reality is though 8/10 on here would probably have behaved the same way as the PO people if they were in their shoes.

I think you're right *in as much as* a lot of people, in large organisations, are inclined to allow corporate momentum to carry them along. Rocking the boat, challenging long-tenured senior managers, telling people they're morally wrong or incompetent or worse: those are not things the sort of people who make careers for themselves in large organisations tend to do.

There aren't that many iconoclasts or heretics. I tend to be one of them, which is why I don't flourish in very large organisations

I don't think 8/10 people would be as morally corrupt as some of the senior management witnesses seem to have been; but these things happen so often because the ordinary middle-management folk do not or cannot rock the boat.

[PlywoodPascal]

LimmerickLad said:

Mojooo said:

The reality is though 8/10 on here would probably have behaved the same way as the PO people if they were in their shoes.

Speak for yourself.

I think it not unlikely.
Reminiscent of Hannah Arendt and her words on the “banality of evil’.

[Boringvolvodriver]

skwdenyer said:

I think you're right *in as much as* a lot of people, in large organisations, are inclined to allow corporate momentum to carry them along. Rocking the boat, challenging long-tenured senior managers, telling people they're morally wrong or incompetent or worse: those are not things the sort of people who make careers for themselves in large organisations tend to do.

There aren't that many iconoclasts or heretics. I tend to be one of them, which is why I don't flourish in very large organisations

I don't think 8/10 people would be as morally corrupt as some of the senior management witnesses seem to have been; but these things happen so often because the ordinary middle-management folk do not or cannot rock the boat.

Agreed - I have seen similar where mid to senior managers will not tell those higher up the true position for, depending on the person, fear of reprisals or being seen as a trouble maker.

I have worked for someone who actually said that he didn’t want to hear bad news which made letting them know the facts somewhat of a challenge! There were ways and means though!

[Speed 3]

Richard-D said:

IJWS15 said:

Would be nice if something that came out of this was that Commons Select Committees have to approve senior appointments to publicly funded roles.

The could ask candidates the really difficult questions like “What did you have for breakfast?” to test their memories.

Imagine how that would get abused though. The cushy jobs that only the 'right' people could be appointed to. In theory it makes a lot of sense but I doubt the reality would be a good system for anyone except a select few.

Agreed, just look at the mess the US is in with political appointees in public work.

[Wills2]

PlywoodPascal said:

LimmerickLad said:

Mojooo said:

The reality is though 8/10 on here would probably have behaved the same way as the PO people if they were in their shoes.

Speak for yourself.

I think it not unlikely.
Reminiscent of Hannah Arendt and her words on the “banality of evil’.

8 out of 10 is pretty strong though, sure there are people that would go along with what happened, I've met quite a few in my career but I'd say it was the reverse more like 2 out of 10.

Back in 2020 I was working for a FTSE 100 and they implemented a new SAP system whilst everyone was working remotely, it failed badly putting the business into a tail spin, (it wasn't the entire group but a £1.5 billion division of it) the "losses" it created were enormous, black holes everywhere from invoicing to stock to deliveries it was endless (or seemed that way) but no one was sent to jail or prosecuted, there was a little bit of "protect the project" from the IT team and senior management but that was soon quashed by the back lash from staff.

People spoke out managers backed them up giving the senior team no choice but to do the right thing and fix the system, in the end the divisional CEO/CIO and COO all went after the group board got involved.

[PlywoodPascal]

Wills2 said:

8 out of 10 is pretty strong though, sure there are people that would go along with what happened, I've met quite a few in my career but I'd say it was the reverse more like 2 out of 10.

Back in 2020 I was working for a FTSE 100 and they implemented a new SAP system whilst everyone was working remotely, it failed badly putting the business into a tail spin, (it wasn't the entire group but a £1.5 billion division of it) the "losses" it created were enormous, black holes everywhere from invoicing to stock to deliveries it was endless (or seemed that way) but no one was sent to jail or prosecuted, there was a little bit of "protect the project" from the IT team and senior management but that was soon quashed by the back lash from staff.

People spoke out managers backed them up giving the senior team no choice but to do the right thing and fix the system, in the end the divisional CEO/CIO and COO all went after the group board got involved.

Sounds very similar to what happened at my employer, none has lost a job over it. Financial system
Still doesn’t work properly. millions written off as losses. Thousands of actual productive roles now in the loop on purchasing etc. our chief executive (vice chancellor) still in place. Total screw up, people have spoken out but there is no accountability.

[Wills2]

Boringvolvodriver said:

Agreed - I have seen similar where mid to senior managers will not tell those higher up the true position for, depending on the person, fear of reprisals or being seen as a trouble maker.

I have worked for someone who actually said that he didn’t want to hear bad news which made letting them know the facts somewhat of a challenge! There were ways and means though!

You can look at that from the other side as well, my biggest team was around 45 people with 4-5 direct reports, there were a number of people that when faced with an issue would just throw it up the line (here you go not my issue) that gets wearing and shows them to be completely disinterested in resolving issues which is a core part of anyone's working day.

You can tell me as much bad news as you want but you better also tell me what you have done to resolve it (that's not the same as resolving it) come in for advice, come in for support and help but don't walk in st on the desk and then walk out.

[Wills2]

PlywoodPascal said:

Wills2 said:

8 out of 10 is pretty strong though, sure there are people that would go along with what happened, I've met quite a few in my career but I'd say it was the reverse more like 2 out of 10.

Back in 2020 I was working for a FTSE 100 and they implemented a new SAP system whilst everyone was working remotely, it failed badly putting the business into a tail spin, (it wasn't the entire group but a £1.5 billion division of it) the "losses" it created were enormous, black holes everywhere from invoicing to stock to deliveries it was endless (or seemed that way) but no one was sent to jail or prosecuted, there was a little bit of "protect the project" from the IT team and senior management but that was soon quashed by the back lash from staff.

People spoke out managers backed them up giving the senior team no choice but to do the right thing and fix the system, in the end the divisional CEO/CIO and COO all went after the group board got involved.

Sounds very similar to what happened at my employer, none has lost a job over it. Financial system
Still doesn’t work properly. millions written off as losses. Thousands of actual productive roles now in the loop on purchasing etc. our chief executive (vice chancellor) still in place. Total screw up, people have spoken out but there is no accountability.

Well I was actually saying that it was the reverse of the PO situation and that the bosses did get the chop.

[eliot]

she's got her neck covered again today - hides the tell-tale blushing....

[Bonefish Blues]

eliot said:

she's got her neck covered again today - hides the tell-tale blushing....

TBF it happens to many people as a natural reflex, irrespective of guilt or otherwise.

[Unreal]

It covers the bolts. She is inhuman. A truly repellent individual but far from the only one.

[Camoradi]

Having just watched the remainder of yesterday's session and catching up today, it appears her defence is that she was an overpromoted and overpaid idiot surrounded by evil underlings who concealed the truth from her.

Not credible in the slightest.

I do hope there is a purpose to all this and that in due course sanctions beyond public humiliation will be taking place.

This woman and others destroyed the sub postmasters lives in order to keep their own careers on path.

[GT03ROB]

Camoradi said:

Having just watched the remainder of yesterday's session and catching up today, it appears her defence is that she was an overpromoted and overpaid idiot surrounded by evil underlings who concealed the truth from her.

To be fair she was doing a good impression of being an overpromoted/overpaid idiot.

[LimmerickLad]

Gotcha

[skwdenyer]

GT03ROB said:

Camoradi said:

Having just watched the remainder of yesterday's session and catching up today, it appears her defence is that she was an overpromoted and overpaid idiot surrounded by evil underlings who concealed the truth from her.

To be fair she was doing a good impression of being an overpromoted/overpaid idiot.

I think she's indicative of a style of "leadership" that simply isn't fit for purpose. See also the outgoing head of John Lewis, and so many others. Leading an organisation isn't just about feelings and intentions and committees; it is about creating and maintaining structures to provide effective control and direction. Unless you get the last bit right, the rest is just makework.

[Maxdecel]

You can sense the disbelief by that simultaneous groan from the public.