Mick Mannock and James McCudden AIr Aces - Timewatch
Discussion
Mannock was actually Irish (born in Co. Cork). His dad was Scottish and his mum was Engliah. His birthplace was in Cork because his father was a seargent in the Army and was based there at the time.
He is, technically, Ireland's greatest air ace but is virtually unknown in his home country.
He's not that well known over here these days either but here in Farnborough, the bitrthplace of the SE5A, a full size replica of his actual plane hangs from the roof of Princes Mead shopping centre. The plane was there for about 15 years before an information plaque was set up to explain its history to passers by.
He is, technically, Ireland's greatest air ace but is virtually unknown in his home country.
He's not that well known over here these days either but here in Farnborough, the bitrthplace of the SE5A, a full size replica of his actual plane hangs from the roof of Princes Mead shopping centre. The plane was there for about 15 years before an information plaque was set up to explain its history to passers by.
Alexj800 said:
cardigankid said:
It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.
Cheer up! Where's your fighting spirit? 
Something like 10-15% of people living here at the start of WW1 were living at subsistance level, with another 10% or so living below subsistance. Most of the world may have been coloured pink, but it was a very tough time for the working class at the start of the 20th century. I'm glad I live in 2009!
Mannock was quite an odd character in lots of ways. Although termed a "British" hero and a recipient of numerous bravery awards for fighting for "King and country" (including a posthumous VC), he was a staunch Irish nationalist and a firm believer and advocate of Irish home rule. If he had survived the war, I reckon that he would have gone into politics, either as a Labour party candidate in British elections or maybe even as a member of Sinn Fein.
We'll never know.
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
derestrictor said:
Yes, fascinating stuff.
Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
Although it is commonly pointed out that parachutes "weren't allowed" in the RFC and fledgling RAF, you have to remember that compact stowable parachutes did not make their appearance untl the last few months of the war. Static line parachutes had been in use since the beginning of the war but they were totally impractical for use in the aeroplanes available between 1914 and the end of 1916. They were almost exclusibvely used by crewmen of thethered observation balloons. The Imperial German Air Service began issuing parachutes to their aeroplane pilots from the Spring of 1918. Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
The RFC/RAF didn't get around to issuing their version of the stowable parachute until after the war had ended. This was partly down to prejudice but was as much to the fact that British military aviation was in a bit of turmoil at that time as the RFC and RNAS were in the process of merging to form the RAF.
Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 24th March 15:18
cardigankid said:
Eric Mc said:
Hollywood's most recent attempt (Fly Boys) was a bit of a dog's breakfast.
Peter Jackson's the man for the job as he is an ardent WW1 aircraft nut.
Agreed, or Ridley Scott. 'Flyboys' was utter garbage. No wonder it only cost me £1.99. The best WW1 flying film was Aces High back in '75. But let me warn you, all of these productions reek of today's attitudes projected back to 1916.Peter Jackson's the man for the job as he is an ardent WW1 aircraft nut.
I would recommend some of the early Biggles stories for a pretty accurate rendition of RFC life at that time too. I know they are looked on as kids' books but W E Johns was a WW1 flyer and there is a definite air of authenticity in his accounts of RFC life.
majordad said:
I watched the programme and it was vwry good. I live in Cork and did not know about Mannock, do you know where he was from or lived in Cork. 20 miles north of Cork City in the town of Fermoy there was an Irish Army home camp to a cavalry squadern. The old name of the camp was the aerodrome, and the hangers are still there. I believe the RFC were there prior to 1922 when England pulled out of Ireland.
I only discovered Mannock's Irish connections a couple of years ago - although I'd known about him being an ace since I was a kid.In fact, the number of Irish air aces is quite amazing. There is another chap called George McElroy who shot down over 40 German aircraft in WW1 and he was from Dublin.
These Irish aces are virtually unknown in their homeland and maybe it's about time that some sort of recognition of their achievements was recorded in their native land.
In WW2 there was Brendan "Paddy" Finucane, also from Dublin, who shot down over 30 German aircraft. He IS recognised in Ireland now and there is a small memorial garden to him at the Irish Air Corp's HQ at Baldonnell.
Funk Odyssey said:
Eric Mc said:
majordad said:
I watched the programme and it was vwry good. I live in Cork and did not know about Mannock, do you know where he was from or lived in Cork. 20 miles north of Cork City in the town of Fermoy there was an Irish Army home camp to a cavalry squadern. The old name of the camp was the aerodrome, and the hangers are still there. I believe the RFC were there prior to 1922 when England pulled out of Ireland.
I only discovered Mannock's Irish connections a couple of years ago - although I'd known about him being an ace since I was a kid.In fact, the number of Irish air aces is quite amazing. There is another chap called George McElroy who shot down over 40 German aircraft in WW1 and he was from Dublin.
He wass killed in action in 1942 so he didn't have a post war life to cope with. I think you are mixing him up with someone else.
These Irish aces are virtually unknown in their homeland and maybe it's about time that some sort of recognition of their achievements was recorded in their native land.
In WW2 there was Brendan "Paddy" Finucane, also from Dublin, who shot down over 30 German aircraft. He IS recognised in Ireland now and there is a small memorial garden to him at the Irish Air Corp's HQ at Baldonnell.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 25th March 08:50
Buffalo said:
cardigankid said:
Eric Mc said:
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
I have often come to the conclusion that the view of these men going off to fight nobly for King & Country is made up sentimentalism. On the contrary, it was often obvious from a number of accounts I have read that if they had volunteered (rather than being drafted) it was probably more because it was better than what they had at home, knew what to expect (going into WW2 from WW1 so a defined existence, particularly if they found it hard to adjust to life after WW1), etc; or for some it was just a bloody good excuse for a bit of mischief. I have read accounts from some soldiers who just thought, yeah let's have a go at that and get away form this place for a while.... There are a strain of British working class fellas (which the fighting blokes were) who really do and always have put value in hard work and effort and whether that was down t'pit, in a factory or shooting at Jerry it didn't really make much difference to most of them. They just wanted the chance to show themselves off.
If it was me and we had a war now that I was obliged to fight in I really don't think I would give much thought to Queen & Country but if you handed me the controls of the Eurofighter and told me to get ballistic with the enemy
I'd think "f
k yeah, I'm in!". Edited by Buffalo on Wednesday 25th March 08:57
Mannock was fighting for democracy, I have no doubt about it, but he was also carrying out a personal grudge against Gerrmany and her allies - particularly because of the appalling treatment he had received at the hands of the Turks following his incarceration as an internee in 1914.
At the onset of war in August 1914, the recruiting stations were totally overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of men who rushed to volunteer to join up. There is absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of these did so out of a strong sense of patriotism and nationalistic fervour. Others did so because their "pals" were doing it and they didn't want to be left out. There was also a strong sense of "doing one's duty" in British men (and boys) of that era so that would have encouraged many to join up. No doubt, much of this enthusiasm was misguided.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
He was one of the SAS chaps, wasn't he. A total psycho - ideally suited for his "behind the lines " activities in the Desert but totally unsuited for civvie life afterwards.
Most flightcrew were much more sensitive and "normal" - mainly because the "killing" they performed was remote and caused less of an impact on their personalties. It was fear of "getting the chop" which tended to screw them up.
Most flightcrew were much more sensitive and "normal" - mainly because the "killing" they performed was remote and caused less of an impact on their personalties. It was fear of "getting the chop" which tended to screw them up.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 25th March 16:03
Which I think reflects the frevour of "patriotism" that had existed all through the Victorian and Edwardian eras.
Ireland (as always) was a bit different. The Irish were encouraged to join up for different reasons. Ulster Unionists were peddled the "King and Country" line. Men from the rest of the country were told that they were fighting for a small Catholic country just like Ireland (i.e. Belgian) or were encouraged to "join an Irish regiment" or they were encouraged to "Avenge the Lusitania". There are some interesting WW1 posters out there.
Also, the leader of the Irish Party, John Redmond, came out in favour of Ireland putting its weight into the war effort - despite the fact that the Irish Party had been fighting for Home Rule for decades.
Ireland (as always) was a bit different. The Irish were encouraged to join up for different reasons. Ulster Unionists were peddled the "King and Country" line. Men from the rest of the country were told that they were fighting for a small Catholic country just like Ireland (i.e. Belgian) or were encouraged to "join an Irish regiment" or they were encouraged to "Avenge the Lusitania". There are some interesting WW1 posters out there.
Also, the leader of the Irish Party, John Redmond, came out in favour of Ireland putting its weight into the war effort - despite the fact that the Irish Party had been fighting for Home Rule for decades.
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