Honour killings

[DonkeyApple]

I couldn't locate a thread on this particular story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/92825...

It beggars belief that parents could execute their own child for any reason, let alone one so utterly unimportant.

We have very clearly over the last couple of decades imported a considerable number of Pakistanis with little to no real education and comprehensively failed to force any form of social/cultural integration upon them so they have continued some insidious practices. We have had many discussions on this and I don't feel there is much to be gained by going back to that particular part of the subject.

However, what level of punishment, within the framework of British law, is going to even start getting the message across to these isolated and remote tribes that this savagery must be halted?

As an aside and keeping a PH theme, I'm sure I'm not alone in contemplating a classic cultural setreotype in this regard: 'Alesha, now 23, was unable to say whether her father was driving his taxi, a white Nissan emblazoned with the name “Warrington”, or his wife’s Toyota Carina.'

[Jimbeaux]

DonkeyApple said:

I couldn't locate a thread on this particular story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/92825...

It beggars belief that parents could execute their own child for any reason, let alone one so utterly unimportant.

We have very clearly over the last couple of decades imported a considerable number of Pakistanis with little to no real education and comprehensively failed to force any form of social/cultural integration upon them so they have continued some insidious practices. We have had many discussions on this and I don't feel there is much to be gained by going back to that particular part of the subject.

However, what level of punishment, within the framework of British law, is going to even start getting the message across to these isolated and remote tribes that this savagery must be halted?

As an aside and keeping a PH theme, I'm sure I'm not alone in contemplating a classic cultural setreotype in this regard: 'Alesha, now 23, was unable to say whether her father was driving his taxi, a white Nissan emblazoned with the name “Warrington”, or his wife’s Toyota Carina.'

I believe these killings are more cultural than Islamic, the misread coming that most honor killings are done by people from predominately Islamic nations. I thought, like you, that these things occurred in mainly uneducated families. However, one of the more recent examples was carried out by a very well educated and successful businessman, so go figure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/world/americas/a...

[menguin]

Andrew Edis, QC, prosecuting, told a jury at Chester Crown Court: “Alesha describes what is an act of suffocation by her parents, acting together – a carrier bag forced into her mouth and then hands over her face to close her airways so she could not breath.

Breath. Really Telegraph? Amazing.

[singlecoil]

So she kept shtum for seven years, then, when she fell out with her family, decided to tell all. Will she get away with that?

[DonkeyApple]

Jimbeaux said:

I believe these killings are more cultural than Islamic, the misread coming that most honor killings are done by people from predominately Islamic nations. I thought, like you, that these things occurred in mainly uneducated families. However, one of the more recent examples was carried out by a very well educated and successful businessman, so go figure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/world/americas/a...

I agree.

It clearly plays a role as it retards both social integration as well as general education. But this honour stuff is deeply tribal.

All societies have it to some regard. But to be so strong as to lead to executing your own kith and kin is quite incredible.

[bitchstewie]

If it is a cultural thing and related to background, how come that you don't seem to read many stories of Sikh or Hindu families committing honour killings despite presumably coming from similarly poor, almost tribal backgrounds?

Happy to show my ignorance on this one, but other than people who kill their children because they're simply feral scum, everything I can remember where "honour" is involved seems to be muslim, which suggests there must be more to it than simply being from a poor area.

[DonkeyApple]

bhstewie said:

If it is a cultural thing and related to background, how come that you don't seem to read many stories of Sikh or Hindu families committing honour killings despite presumably coming from similarly poor, almost tribal backgrounds?

Happy to show my ignorance on this one, but other than people who kill their children because they're simply feral scum, everything I can remember where "honour" is involved seems to be muslim, which suggests there must be more to it than simply being from a poor area.

There is a relevance in the UK because we have over 2m Pakistanis here. This is a large population demographic.

When you look at the Indian demographic, ie the Sikhs and Hindus it is quite different as very many arrived either as part of the partition exodus (along with many Pakistanis) and were a smaller cultural number who have integrated well over the long period since. In addition, many are also East African and arrived as the Empire shut down.

Many arrivals already worked in a British environment prior to arriving and many were very well educated.

When you look at many cultural groups which arrived, many were either of the educated classes or because of Empire already semi integrated.

The key tends to be when you look at the more recent arrivals, there level of education and the sheer numbers.

There are honour killings/maimings in many cultures including Indian but this isn't reflected in British society due to demographics.

If we hadn't hoovered vast amounts of detritus from extremely backward areas of already third world countries I don't think we would be seeing these local headlines.

[Corsair7]

My sister used to work in a certain large Islamic country as a nurse. Honour killings were routine, according to her. Additionally, incest was also widespread. Girls taken into the desert and hacked to death, or even worse (left to bleed to death in the desert sun)....

never investigated either.

Makes you shudder.

[smegmore]

'Sent to marry her cousin in Pakistan'

This is the problem here, educated girls are forced to marry some mountain village idiot who then has the right to come and live here, no language or social skills and probably no prospect of meaningful employment other than Uncle Mo's kebab shop whilst banging out a succession of sproggis.

Shameful that this is allowed to continue.

Thanks very much to the wishy-washy do-gooders.

[12gauge]

We need to recognize sharia courts. Obviously they don't want our laws and we don't want theirs.

[Pesty]

smegmore said:

'Sent to marry her cousin in Pakistan'

This is the problem here, educated girls are forced to marry some mountain village idiot ]

I worked in three large factories in the midlands. Hundreds of young Pakistani men.

From time to time groups of them would go home (their words) to get a wife.

I would ask why not get one from here.

Like mantra they would all say exactly the same things. EXACTLY, WORD FOR WORD from wolverhmapton to birmingham and beyond.

White women are for fking and Pakistani gilrs here don't know their place.

These were not mountain village idiots( although they could have passed) they were all born and educated here.

Edited by Pesty on Tuesday 22 May 22:47

[smegmore]

Pesty said:

I worked in three large factories in teh midlans. Hundreds of young Pakistani men.

From time to time groups of them would go home (their words) to get a wife.

I would ask why not get one from here.

Like mantra they would all say exactly the same things. EXACTLY, WORD FOR WORD from wolverhmapton to birmingham and beyond.

White women are for fking and Pakistani gilrs here don't know their place.

These were not mountain village idiots( although they could have passed) they were all born and educated here.

Pesty, I think you misunderstood my point.

Young girls whose family is of Pakistani origin and who are born and educated in the UK and thus British citizens who are, at the behest of their family, sent to Pakistan to marry their cousin and so on and so forth...

HTH

[Pesty]

I understood that.

My point is men who are educated here still have this Pakistani village misogynist culture.

They bring over their mountain village idiots and kick out loads of sprogs who are brought up by their mothers exactly like they would in the village back home.

The cycle continues

[smegmore]

Pesty said:

I understood that.

My point is men who are educated here still have this Pakistani village misogynist culture.

They bring over their mountain village idiots and kick out loads of sprogs who are brought up by their mothers exactly like they would in the village back home.

The cycle continues

Agreed, especially on the last point.

[JB!]

Pesty said:

I worked in three large factories in the midlands. Hundreds of young Pakistani men.

From time to time groups of them would go home (their words) to get a wife.

I would ask why not get one from here.

Like mantra they would all say exactly the same things. EXACTLY, WORD FOR WORD from wolverhmapton to birmingham and beyond.

White women are for fking and Pakistani gilrs here don't know their place.

These were not mountain village idiots( although they could have passed) they were all born and educated here.

Edited by Pesty on Tuesday 22 May 22:47

I have actually SEEN this attitude. "Girlfriends" that the parents dont know about, arranged marriages...

There is an attitude difference towards women that doesn't sit well In western society.

[vsonix]

I always wonder how many people the perpetrators of these types of act must have offed before then to be able to do it in what seems like such a blasé fashion. Then again western religious doctrine does also imply it's OK, nay, mandatory to kill your kids if God says so. That's why it's so important our governments remain secular.

[amirzed]

bhstewie said:

If it is a cultural thing and related to background, how come that you don't seem to read many stories of Sikh or Hindu families committing honour killings despite presumably coming from similarly poor, almost tribal backgrounds?

Happy to show my ignorance on this one, but other than people who kill their children because they're simply feral scum, everything I can remember where "honour" is involved seems to be muslim, which suggests there must be more to it than simply being from a poor area.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550428/Wife-sentenced-to-death-by-mother-in-law.html

though having said that I only remember this one as I saw a documentary about it

[MadMullah]

it was prevailant in the 1980's amongst the Sikh community but they did something about it - they stuck up for the women and created support groups and did out reach work

watch bhaji on the beach and its something similar - the women stuck up for each other and there wasnt that stigma of the single mother/daughter etc

What i see the problem is that the religious aspect of it all - whilst its not being denied - its not being actively stopped. even the imam's are stuck between a hard rock and a tough place.

islamically - on one hand they'd be correct in saying respect the daughters wishes but on the other hand the "community" would be seeing it as encouraging promiscuous behaviour.

the whole taking the girls back home thing is a result of the guys goin back home in the first place to get married. if they dont take the girls back home then the parents feel they'll b here in the uk getting old etc and they'll fail as their parental responsibility.

the point of resistance comes when children born and raised in the uk try to amalgamate with the uk crowd by doing british things such as dating but they clash with the cultural taboo of dating.



With more specific to this case - i think the cps doesnt have a strong case. 7 years later after being caught robbing her parents house she decides to go public with what she saw? rather convenient and i do think the defence will hit her hard on this.

i do think her parents did have soemthing to do with it - however i dont believe her - you cant hide soemthing as traumatic as that for 7 years.

[Pints]

vsonix said:

Then again western religious doctrine does also imply it's OK, nay, mandatory to kill your kids if God says so. That's why it's so important our governments remain secular.

To which religious doctrine do you allude?

[singlecoil]

Pints said:

vsonix said:

Then again western religious doctrine does also imply it's OK, nay, mandatory to kill your kids if God says so. That's why it's so important our governments remain secular.

To which religious doctrine do you allude?

He might be referring to Abraham and Isaac.