Fairness and 'social mobility'
Discussion
There's been a lot on the news over the last few days about 'fairness and social mobility'. I don't think there is any other subject that gets my blood boiling more.
Why don't they just say what they mean...if you work, we're going to tax you to death so the Stella swigging, benefit scrounging underclass can have a new 50" TV!
Why don't they just say what they mean...if you work, we're going to tax you to death so the Stella swigging, benefit scrounging underclass can have a new 50" TV!
I'd agree that Governments should help to make social mobility possible for those willing to work hard enough to achieve it if they want. Unfortunately however, our previous government took tax in various forms from hard working people, then borrowed a bit, and used it to provide social mobility scooters to said Stella drinkers. Now they think its their right and not something you should have to work for.
"Social mobility" just means being able to do better in life than your parents did - usually by education and hard work. Giving someone benefits does not improve their social mobility.
"Fairness" means lots of different things to different people. Some people think a fair society is one where nobody receives too much more or less than the average income, no matter how industrious or lazy or talented or useless they are. Other people think a fair society is one where it's every man for himself and devil take the hindmost. Personally, I think it's one where anyone can succeed with hard work and talent.
"Fairness" means lots of different things to different people. Some people think a fair society is one where nobody receives too much more or less than the average income, no matter how industrious or lazy or talented or useless they are. Other people think a fair society is one where it's every man for himself and devil take the hindmost. Personally, I think it's one where anyone can succeed with hard work and talent.
otolith said:
Personally, I think it's one where anyone can succeed with hard work and talent.
Sadly, that is not how a lot of politicians see it. I cringe every time that I hear Vince Cable use the word "Fairness".The reality is that we do have an environment where anyone can succeed. Unfortunately, large sections of society do not believe this - and so they cannot make the effort.
Don
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k you all, your on your own 
don4l said:
otolith said:
Personally, I think it's one where anyone can succeed with hard work and talent.
Sadly, that is not how a lot of politicians see it. I cringe every time that I hear Vince Cable use the word "Fairness".The reality is that we do have an environment where anyone can succeed. Unfortunately, large sections of society do not believe this - and so they cannot make the effort.
Don
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If by pot luck you are born to professional/middle-class/educated/you-know-what-I-mean parents rather than benefit/chav scum, your life outcomes is going to be somewhat better.
The idea that all children have an equal playing field is obviously wrong.
If we consider that to problem is a different question.
You can't level the nature/nurture playing field - but what you can (and should) do is to ensure that the state education system offers each child the opportunity to be equipped to fulfil their potential. If they don't take it, well, you can lead a horse to water.
Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
otolith said:
You can't level the nature/nurture playing field - but what you can (and should) do is to ensure that the state education system offers each child the opportunity to be equipped to fulfil their potential. If they don't take it, well, you can lead a horse to water.
Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
And we should be reducing the number of higher ed. providers so that tuition fees can be done away with.Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
Fittster said:
don4l said:
otolith said:
Personally, I think it's one where anyone can succeed with hard work and talent.
Sadly, that is not how a lot of politicians see it. I cringe every time that I hear Vince Cable use the word "Fairness".The reality is that we do have an environment where anyone can succeed. Unfortunately, large sections of society do not believe this - and so they cannot make the effort.
Don
--
If by pot luck you are born to professional/middle-class/educated/you-know-what-I-mean parents rather than benefit/chav scum, your life outcomes is going to be somewhat better.
The idea that all children have an equal playing field is obviously wrong.
If we consider that to problem is a different question.
It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
If you've failed to get as far in life as you'd like blaming who your parents were is easier than accepting that it's down to you.
The irony being that someone who blames other people for there lack of what they think they are due, should realise that it is precisely that attitude that explains why it is that they have failed to achieve.
otolith said:
You can't level the nature/nurture playing field - but what you can (and should) do is to ensure that the state education system offers each child the opportunity to be equipped to fulfil their potential. If they don't take it, well, you can lead a horse to water.
Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
Bang on the money!Trying (for example) to get elite universities to lower their standards for bright kids from underprivileged backgrounds is an admission of failure by the state education system to offer those kids the best education they could benefit from, IMO.
Randy Winkman said:
Timmy35 said:
It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
Do PHers that do the best they can for their children agree that their efforts are pointless? What you earn, and the size of your house doesn't always equate to how well you nurture you're children.
It's just a useful way for politicians to justify high taxes which they use to buy votes.
Edited to add well nutured children with ambitious parents can be complete failures and vice versa often kids who are left with no one to rely on but themselves thrive in later life as they can often be more independant and driven.
Edited by Timmy35 on Wednesday 18th August 12:20
I actually resent the concept of social mobility as it implies that there are different social strata that we must be mobile between. We're all skin and bone, and whatever your background it is amply possible in the UK, and has been for a long time, to make something of yourself in financial terms, in terms of education, owning property, and exhibiting good manners.
"Social mobility" is a left wing buzz word that was invented to perpetuate a false division between a blue blooded Etonian bogeyman who hasn't been seen since the 1950s and an oppressed working class that died soon after. They perpetuate this division because without it they are exposed for the meddling, self-serving and pointless party they are.
"Social mobility" is a left wing buzz word that was invented to perpetuate a false division between a blue blooded Etonian bogeyman who hasn't been seen since the 1950s and an oppressed working class that died soon after. They perpetuate this division because without it they are exposed for the meddling, self-serving and pointless party they are.
Timmy35 said:
...People have always moved from rags to riches under their own steam, the idea that it's not possible dates from the socialist ideology of the 1960s & 1970s.
It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
If you've failed to get as far in life as you'd like blaming who your parents were is easier than accepting that it's down to you.
The irony being that someone who blames other people for there lack of what they think they are due, should realise that it is precisely that attitude that explains why it is that they have failed to achieve.
That said, my father was a solcialist yet he and his brothers all went on to improve their standing in comparison to my grandparents and both my brother and I have improved upon our parents. I don't think work ethics and politics a necessarily linked. It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
If you've failed to get as far in life as you'd like blaming who your parents were is easier than accepting that it's down to you.
The irony being that someone who blames other people for there lack of what they think they are due, should realise that it is precisely that attitude that explains why it is that they have failed to achieve.
Quality education is where its at.
Everything from then on is down to the individual.
There is no doubt that equality of education does not exist in this country.
First step is to scrap catchments, allow schools to sack retards masquerading as teachers, implement a voucher system and allow crap schools to go bust and die. But it wont happen because of short sighted vested interests and others too interested in keeping the underdogs on the ground. That being said, often its the underdogs themselves asking to be kept underfoot, mainly through communist influenced ignorance.
Everything from then on is down to the individual.
There is no doubt that equality of education does not exist in this country.
First step is to scrap catchments, allow schools to sack retards masquerading as teachers, implement a voucher system and allow crap schools to go bust and die. But it wont happen because of short sighted vested interests and others too interested in keeping the underdogs on the ground. That being said, often its the underdogs themselves asking to be kept underfoot, mainly through communist influenced ignorance.
RichB said:
Timmy35 said:
...People have always moved from rags to riches under their own steam, the idea that it's not possible dates from the socialist ideology of the 1960s & 1970s.
It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
If you've failed to get as far in life as you'd like blaming who your parents were is easier than accepting that it's down to you.
The irony being that someone who blames other people for there lack of what they think they are due, should realise that it is precisely that attitude that explains why it is that they have failed to achieve.
That said, my father was a solcialist yet he and his brothers all went on to improve their standing in comparison to my grandparents and both my brother and I have improved upon our parents. I don't think work ethics and politics a necessarily linked. It is not your parents, but your work ethic and application of your talents that determines your life outcome.
If you've failed to get as far in life as you'd like blaming who your parents were is easier than accepting that it's down to you.
The irony being that someone who blames other people for there lack of what they think they are due, should realise that it is precisely that attitude that explains why it is that they have failed to achieve.
Not comparing your family to Blair btw
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