Drug addicts and benefits. My pee is superheated.

[johnfm]

So, watching BBC news on drug addicts to lose benefits

Then they show the tattoo addicts getting accupuncture, listening to calming music.

That must be nice for them.

[Mojocvh]

Oh. what. a. well. thought. out. plan.

Actually, IF it forces them to rehab then it's perhaps a winner, but it's a big IF.

Edited by Mojocvh on Friday 20th August 22:49

[Jasandjules]

johnfm said:

So, watching BBC news on drug addicts to lose benefits

So they have to go out and steal more? Not a well thought through policy.....

[jbi]

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

[otolith]

Junkies and alcoholics. Good idea, i think, though I'm afraid the only benefit dependent alcoholic I know is too far gone - I doubt he'll ever work again, even if he gets off the sauce. Too much brain damage, too many falls, too many kickings. Tragic, really, there's not much of the man he was left.

[number2301]

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

[Willie Dee]

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Yes because we have seen how well relying on punishment as a deterrent normally works out so lets keep at that winning solution some more.

[eldar]

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

[jbi]

Re-hab programs are available.

I hope I'm not coming across as heartless toward these people as I used to know several addicts (morphine and Vicodin), which have similar withdrawal symptoms.

At the end of the day though, if they feel they can get their fix easily they simply wont even try to quit.

Edited by jbi on Friday 20th August 23:22

[stitched]

eldar said:

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

Actually works out cheaper in the long run.
sigh

[Mojocvh]

stitched said:

eldar said:

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

Actually works out cheaper in the long run.
sigh

YEP.

[Sheets Tabuer]

They spend £100 a day to feed the habit, remove benefits and you take away what, £60 JSA, probably a bedsit if they can handle bills unless they sit in the dark.

I bet tesco are waiting with glee the extra shoplifters, tories, mental as ever, never solve a problem just think by cutting funding you can cure it.

Out of touch? never.

[Pony]

legalise it

[SystemParanoia]

Addicts get x2 £60 payments per week, instead of 1 every fortnight

[spaximus]

They need to take all the junkies and lock them away from drugs and get them clean try to rehabilitate them. If after all this is dine they will still need help but for some taking them away from the pushers will be enough.

For some being locked up is a better life than they have now

[ringram]

Pony said:

legalise it

+1 best suggestion.

[eldar]

stitched said:

eldar said:

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

Actually works out cheaper in the long run.
sigh

How so? Seems to me that paying someone to continue an illegal lifestyle is an expensive and morally questionable approach, and isn't going to solve any problems in either the long or short term.

[10 Pence Short]

eldar said:

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

That's what I keep coming back to.

The problem isn't drugs per se- the problem is a section of society unable to support themselves financially. People say drugs should be legalised, and use the evidence of the current mess as proof that the system doesn't work. It's a reasonable, logical point of view. It seems clear that we cannot stop illegal drugs being supplied and the answer is not to treat users as criminals.

Where this argument tends to fall down, is when you look at who is going to pay for it.

If you have someone addicted to a drug like heroin, to the point under the current system where they begin to fall foul of the law, they are clearly not in a position to work or support themselves meaningfully. So the first thing you do is legalise the drug and allow it to become available in some restricted way or another, possibly for free to the user in return for treatment.

Now there is no issue of criminality.

What situation does that leave behind, though? Whilst an addict may not now have to steal to pay for the drugs they need, freeing up a huge amount of Policing and Justice System resources, you are left with a far less politically attractive problem; hard working, tax paying members of the public are now being asked to fund the drug riddled lifestyles of people unwilling and/or unable to get a job for themselves.

You could argue that this already happens anyway and the cost is already being borne by the Welfare system- you have to assume the addicts are already claiming any and every benefit they can. What helps keep the calm, is that the position of the State is that of disapproval, though. The evidence of the disapproval is in the criminalisation of the drug and the Police and Justice system action taken against those drug addicts.

If the State decriminalises the drug and the drug taking, then it also removes its disapproval and by implication is then sending out the message that it is sponsoring the lifestyles of those who are addicted to drugs and have no intention of working, instead happy to cream off the tax payer to sit at home and get fked up.

Whilst there's some merit in the argument that the addiction is an illness and it needs treating like an illness, the reality is only a small proportion of tax payers will buy that and only a small amount of drug users will view it as that way. The vast majority of tax payers will not tolerate it and the vast majority of drug users will seek to make hay from the situation.


So when faced with the question of decriminalisation, which is the best moral and political situation? It's not that clear cut.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Saturday 21st August 09:00

[Badgerboy]

Simply seal them in an old coal mine. They are effectively dead on the inside anyway. Perhaps the more resourceful one's may escape, they can go clean or go back in the mine minus a foot..

[stitched]

10 Pence Short said:

eldar said:

number2301 said:

jbi said:

it will force them to make some difficult choices.

Face the slammer or get an honest job and clean up.

Now all we need to do is make jail a very undesirable place to be. not the holiday camp it currently is.

Do you seriously think prison is a deterrent for a heroin addict? No matter how harsh you make it you'll never make it as bad as the lives they lead outside.

Ridiculous policy.

What is the answer then? We keep paying them to maintain their lifestyle?

That's what I keep coming back to.

The problem isn't drugs per se- the problem is a section of society unable to support themselves financially. People say drugs should be legalised, and use the evidence of the current mess as proof that the system doesn't work. It's a reasonable, logical point of view. It seems clear that we cannot stop illegal drugs being supplied and the answer is not to treat users as criminals.

Where this argument tends to fall down, is when you look at who is going to pay for it.

If you have someone addicted to a drug like heroin, to the point under the current system where they begin to fall foul of the law, they are clearly not in a position to work or support themselves meaningfully. So the first thing you do is legalise the drug and allow it to become available in some restricted way or another, possibly for free to the user in return for treatment.

Now there is no issue of criminality.

What situation does that leave behind, though? Whilst an addict may not now have to steal to pay for the drugs they need, freeing up a huge amount of Policing and Justice System resources, you are left with a far less politically attractive problem; hard working, tax paying members of the public are now being asked to fund the drug riddled lifestyles of people unwilling and/or unable to get a job for themselves.

You could argue that this already happens anyway and the cost is already being borne by the Welfare system- you have to assume the addicts are already claiming any and every benefit they can. What helps keep the calm, is that the position of the State is that of disapproval, though. The evidence of the disapproval is in the criminalisation of the drug and the Police and Justice system action taken against those drug addicts.

If the State decriminalises the drug and the drug taking, then it also removes its disapproval and by implication is then sending out the message that it is sponsoring the lifestyles of those who are addicted to drugs and have no intention of working, instead happy to cream off the tax payer to sit at home and get fked up.

Whilst there's some merit in the argument that the addiction is an illness and it needs treating like an illness, the reality is only a small proportion of tax payers will buy that and only a small amount of drug users will view it as that way. The vast majority of tax payers will not tolerate it and the vast majority of drug users will seek to make hay from the situation.


So when faced with the question of decriminalisation, which is the best moral and political situation? It's not that clear cut.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Saturday 21st August 09:00

See your point, however it falls flat when you realise that we are already paying to feed their habit.
Due to the drugs status the price is vastly inflated, I believe heroin is a few dollars a kilo in Afghanistan.
As the dealers are criminals then they don't care where the money comes from.
This leads to crime, how many burglaries, muggings, car break ins and bag snatches are drug related?
Legalised drugs free at local pharmacies may look like society approves of addicts but in my case it is more about keeping them out of mh house, car or face.
Prohibition has never yet worked and IMHO will never work.