Executive Pay rises 41%, worker pay 1%

[turbobloke]

Being nice seems to be confused with thinking personal responsibility can be abrogated via blame transfer and that the term unaffordable has no meaning.

I's got nothing to do with being nice, just realistic.

We get this generally, with Labour and their supporters being misdescribed as caring and Conservatives and supporters being mislabelled as nasty.

Creating jobs out of thin air using borrowed money - jobs that have no fundamental long-term basis and will eventually have to go - while generally spending more than you can afford, and then some, all the while telling people that nothing is their fault so they feel good about your political Party while they remain unemployable and dependent, purely so you can claim to be 'nice' but landing the entire nation in the st as a result, isn't caring it's the height of irresponsibility and incompetence.

[rich1231]

crankedup said:

And I thought I was alone on this forum, well said. Comments on this forum during the past couple of years have been completely overblown regarding the self importance of Management and bankers. Society is made up as a group of individuals ultimately to a greater extent reliant upon each other. Simple but true. The greed factor has grown since the 1980's like a bubble and its ready to burst.

Hang on, that perception of being nice and caring is daft. I have seen situations where weak people unable to carry out "dificult" tasks have without realising cost even more pain and job losses later.

I wonder also have you ever really worked anywhere with the general population, and the complete and toal lack of common sense that a good chunk of the population suffer from?

[Sticks.]

turbobloke said:

We get this generally, with Labour and their supporters being misdescribed as caring and Conservatives and supporters being mislabelled as nasty.

Probably another topic but imho there's a big difference compared to previous Conservative govts. Conservatism is far from uncaring, but right now it doesn't look that way, not because of what it must do but how it does it.

[oyster]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You've totally missed the point of both the thread and the comment to which you're replying.

No-one is questioning that management should earn more. Some might question how much more (but again that's not what this is about).
What this is about is the INCREASE in pay, when profits/sales/share prices have not performed well at all.

[johnfm]

martin84 said:

PugwasHDJ80 said:

why shouldn't we be happy about it? i'd much rather have colleagues who work their arses off, raen't carried by the rest of us, and show genuine commitment.

We shouldn't be happy about it because you've only described the good side. The bad side has been mentioned many times in this thread. The fact is extra reward for hard work is rare, not the norm and many more people lose their jobs through no fault of their own than gain them because they deserve them.

PugwasHDJ80 said:

or maybe you realise that in order for the majority to keep their jobs a minority have to suffer- and that minority is the weakest.

I recognised that at the time but I didn't want to be the one to make someone unemployed. I'd rather the decision was taken out of my hands so as somebody else can be the tt. I wasn't let go purely because of that though, company scaled back after the st hit the fan (like many others did) but I wouldn't be surprised if my dawdling on that issue did knock me down a few places in the pecking order on the must-keep list.

PugwasHDJ80 said:

With your view we'd never sack anyone for any reason, we'd all be treated the same, and their would be no reason to do better for ourselves.

Well the good side of never sacking anyone is nobody would be punished for other peoples mistakes either. You can say there's no incentive to try harder, but the flip side is banking employees dont have to clean out their desk because the higher ups threw billions at people who couldn't pay it back. Of course its totally unworkable so I'll accept we need to sack people, but I'll leave the sacking side of things up to you

PugwasHDJ80 said:

you seem to have the over-riding impression than company owners are nasty capitalist who will stamp on anyone.

Not particularly. Anybody who has got to such a position in life hasn't done it all by themselves, they've had to meet other people and sell themselves as a nice human being somewhere down the line. I do think most people on PH will stamp on anyone though.

PugwasHDJ80 said:

The rest care for their staff almost as much as they care about their customers.

That much eh?

otolith said:

Sure - but the point I was making was that contrary to Martin's beliefs, those who are cut out for senior business leadership won't be sat around on the dole or waiting in a dead end job for something to drop in their lap.

But nor is it as simple as just working hard, millions do that but they don't get 41% payrises. We need to get rid of this simplistic view that people who work hard get to the top and everybody who isn't at the top is a useless uneducated waster. Theres people in the fire brigade working for an ordinary wage who run into burning buildings as your £2million a year 'business leaders' run in the other direction. Just because you dont earn 7 figure salaries does not mean you're useless.

By the same token its arrogant to believe anybody who does earn a 7 figure salary has got it all by themselves. So many things play a part, yes you need a certain amount of natural skill and intelligence, you need the sort of personality required but where you're born, who your parents are, what school you went to and who your friends are also count for quite a lot in these things. Luck is the under appreciated part of this equation.

I've already admitted I'm not a big enough to do the jobs they do, so what more do you want from me?

I think you need to figure out why you think it is being a tt if you have to assess a group of workers and choose a % of them who aren't as useful to the company as the others.

It is called management.

How do you make decisions at you current job? I assume you don't order any products from suppliers or anything that involves decision making.

[turbobloke]

oyster said:

What this is about is the INCREASE in pay, when profits/sales/share prices have not performed well at all.

Always a valid point but not to be taken in isolation. If an entire sector takes a hit it doesn't happen retrospectively, and there may well be contractual elements relating to examination of recent as well as current performance - and perhaps benchmarking across the sector as well where the least bad performer is doing well in relative terms. It will always look bad at a superficial level but going down to that level doesn't help. If there are no similar circumstances, then yes it's unjustifiable but only to the extent that a privately owned company can do what it likes with its own money within the law. Shareholders, for their part, do seem to be waking up now.

[crankedup]

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

One of the attributes that you have left out and of utmost importance, the old boys network tie.

[turbobloke]

crankedup said:

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

One of the attributes that you have left out and of utmost importance, the old boys network tie.

Can't see any on Ebay. What do they look like?

[crankedup]

rich1231 said:

crankedup said:

And I thought I was alone on this forum, well said. Comments on this forum during the past couple of years have been completely overblown regarding the self importance of Management and bankers. Society is made up as a group of individuals ultimately to a greater extent reliant upon each other. Simple but true. The greed factor has grown since the 1980's like a bubble and its ready to burst.

Hang on, that perception of being nice and caring is daft. I have seen situations where weak people unable to carry out "dificult" tasks have without realising cost even more pain and job losses later.

I wonder also have you ever really worked anywhere with the general population, and the complete and toal lack of common sense that a good chunk of the population suffer from?

Sorry I cannot see what that has to do with my proclamation that I agree with Martin on many things. Seems to me that we have very POV on many issues regarding politics and business management. Obviously this is a notional comment as we have never actually verbally discussed issues, but from postings we seem to be on the same wave length. I also agree that being 'nice' is not a management tool, but then being a complete barsteward isn't either, somewhere in the middle ground methinks and impartial.
I certainly agree that 'being nice' can cost business money but so can being a barsteward. Being a 'good' front line manager isn't easy to do well, following studies much can be said for experience built over years of practice.

[Odie]

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

Personality encompasses everything about you, everything you are and have done effects your personality.

[crankedup]

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

One of the attributes that you have left out and of utmost importance, the old boys network tie.

Can't see any on Ebay. What do they look like?

Have a wander around the City at lunch times, they are easy to spot if you know what to look for.

[crankedup]

Odie said:

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

Personality encompasses everything about you, everything you are and have done effects your personality.

Interesting, I think you will find that the 'personality' will have developed throughout childhood and is fairly well developed and set in concrete by the onset of teenage. Business acumen comes from studies and practice, look at the manager who was Fred the Shred, some say he had business nous? but his personality of having to 'be right' on every decision and disregarding his fellow Directors led ultimately to his downfall. So its a mixture of both attributes suited to the task in hand, one you cannot change and that personality IMO.

[turbobloke]

crankedup said:

turbobloke said:

crankedup said:

otolith said:

eccles said:

Personality? I thought it was all about skill.

You know, here is a thought, I think it might just be a range of attributes, including talent, education, experience and, yes, personality. The other attributes won't get you far if you are passive, idle and unambitious, will they?

One of the attributes that you have left out and of utmost importance, the old boys network tie.

Can't see any on Ebay. What do they look like?

Have a wander around the City at lunch times, they are easy to spot if you know what to look for.

Having worked in London for 4 years full-time and over 20 years visiting clients, altogether not long but long enough, I've worked and been fed and watered in just about every area worth visiting and the myth you speak of is still a myth, but no doubt a crumb of comfort for people who don't achieve what they'd hoped.

[ukwill]

crankedup said:

Have a wander around the City at lunch times, they are easy to spot if you know what to look for.

Tell me more. You sound like you have a lot of first hand knowledge about the City. The Guardian told me that they're all Spivs who work for Casino's?

[otolith]

I've never heard this "old school tie" stuff given as reasons for failure, only ever as excuses for not trying. Of course networking is important, but you're more likely to make useful contacts at university than at school, and they are open to anyone of talent.

[ukwill]

I'm slightly upset that no one has quoted Marx yet.

[turbobloke]

Any outfit hiring on tie not talent is going nowhere fast. Whatever this tie is that Ebay doesn't seem to have available.

Talent in any tie is still talent even a kipper tie (two sugars)

[otolith]

turbobloke said:

Talent in any tie is still talent even a kipper tie (two sugars)

Oi, no brummies!

[turbobloke]

otolith said:

turbobloke said:

Talent in any tie is still talent even a kipper tie (two sugars)

Oi, no brummies!

Glad to see you did at least leave the door open to yam yams

[PoleDriver]

ukwill said:

I'm slightly upset that no one has quoted Marx yet.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."



HTH