Treasury Minister thinks paying with cash is wrong
Discussion
I sort of see the point, I think we all know that paying for certain services with cash to avoid a paper trail in return for a discount is enabling Tax Fraud, or why would there be a discount? I defy anyone to say "oh I thought I got 15% off because it saved him a trip to the bank"
Yeah yeah yeah it's not illegal, and anyone can wash their hands of it and say "well it's up to him if he lies on his tax return" and of course they're technically right. Morals are a personal thing, I have on occation paid in cash for things, and done deals 50% cash, 50% cheque etc in exchange for a discount, but I'm honest with myself and know I'm probably enabling tax fraud and it's not the seller losing money, it's HMRC.
Yeah yeah yeah it's not illegal, and anyone can wash their hands of it and say "well it's up to him if he lies on his tax return" and of course they're technically right. Morals are a personal thing, I have on occation paid in cash for things, and done deals 50% cash, 50% cheque etc in exchange for a discount, but I'm honest with myself and know I'm probably enabling tax fraud and it's not the seller losing money, it's HMRC.
Odie said:
Eric Mc said:
A good example of an oxymoron at work.
Should I have written 'legally bypassing'?Tax avoidance is always legal.
Where the complication sets in is when what someone thought was a legal tax avoidance scheme turns out, usually following a legal review or even a court case, to be an illegal tax evasion scheme.
The average member of the public and tradesmen are the root cause of the tax deficit in this country and should be targeted. Clearly.
Definitely not the super-rich who, in the UK alone, have avoiding paying AT LEAST £1TN.
It's obvious, isn't it?
Tories trying to put a smoke screen up to protect their own financial interests and that of their super-rich chums?
Eric Mc said:
Odie said:
Eric Mc said:
A good example of an oxymoron at work.
Should I have written 'legally bypassing'?Tax avoidance is always legal.
Where the complication sets in is when what someone thought was a legal tax avoidance scheme turns out, usually following a legal review or even a court case, to be an illegal tax evasion scheme.
I had a new boiler fitted on Saturday, The plumbers day job is doing contract work for insurance companies etc, and has weekends off but does the odd bit here and there on Saturdays. I paid him £1000 cash and a cheque for £860. I couldnt help but think to myself i wonder if this gets declared to the taxman etc, ot goes in his back pocket. who knows....
Eric Mc said:
Zod said:
Eric, you are being self-servingly precious. You know full well why he is offering the discount for cash.
No, I don't "know".I might have an idea - but I can't know uinless the person tells me or I find out through investigation.
Many shops offer cash discounts. Does that mean they are engaged in tax and VAT evasion?
Gazzas86 said:
I had a new boiler fitted on Saturday, The plumbers day job is doing contract work for insurance companies etc, and has weekends off but does the odd bit here and there on Saturdays. I paid him £1000 cash and a cheque for £860. I couldnt help but think to myself i wonder if this gets declared to the taxman etc, ot goes in his back pocket. who knows....
I worry about the same when I pay my Vodafone bill or to any of the big corporates - does the taxman get his fair share?Mermaid said:
I worry about the same when I pay my Vodafone bill or to any of the big corporates - does the taxman get his fair share?
Nope!But they would argue it's not fair, taxman says you owe us 10 billion, they say we will give you five, taxman says "OK then" unlike the rest of us they are big enough to fight back. Could you imagine customs vans turning up at all Vodaphone premises, locking the doors and seizing everything.
Pothole said:
Eric Mc said:
Zod said:
Eric, you are being self-servingly precious. You know full well why he is offering the discount for cash.
No, I don't "know".I might have an idea - but I can't know uinless the person tells me or I find out through investigation.
Many shops offer cash discounts. Does that mean they are engaged in tax and VAT evasion?
Car dealers often offer cash discounts too - as do furniture and carpet retailers.
All totally legal.
ViperPict said:
The average member of the public and tradesmen are the root cause of the tax deficit in this country and should be targeted. Clearly.
Definitely not the super-rich who, in the UK alone, have avoiding paying AT LEAST £1TN.
It's obvious, isn't it?
Tories trying to put a smoke screen up to protect their own financial interests and that of their super-rich chums?
Devils advocate here, but lets stop and think about your statement...Definitely not the super-rich who, in the UK alone, have avoiding paying AT LEAST £1TN.
It's obvious, isn't it?
Tories trying to put a smoke screen up to protect their own financial interests and that of their super-rich chums?
If you take ALL the people who take cash in hand without providing a VAT invoice - all the plumbers, painters, mobile hairdressers etc etc .... I bet it would add to just as huge a sum of money. Why should they be immune from this debate?
And as for the "super rich" in the UK, an awful lot of ignorant b
ks is spoken. If you are domiciled in the UK it is actually bloody hard to not pay taxes here. And the country has plenty of old Tories who have and continue to pay a lot of taxes, including massive inheritance tax when they pop their clogs and pass on the family mansion to their next descendent Rupert.The biggest loop hole are the non-domiciles - there are many VERY rich people with homes in the UK who are actually from other countries. For them, the UK is a tax haven. But the involvement of these non-domiciles is pretty complicated - certainly in London they are holding up high property prices, keeping the restaurants full and spending their cash. So they end up paying a lot of VAT.
It's not as cut and dried as you make out. Just sayin...
Eric Mc said:
Not every business needs to register for VAT.
Smaller traders are often trading below the VAT threshold so have no legal obligation to issue an invoice and it would be downright illegal to issue a VAT invoice if you aren't VAT registered.
That's right - I am not VAT registered as I earn under the £70k (?) threshold, so do not add VAT to my invoices.Smaller traders are often trading below the VAT threshold so have no legal obligation to issue an invoice and it would be downright illegal to issue a VAT invoice if you aren't VAT registered.
(I am not a 'powerfully built business man"...)
Zod said:
bks. When you get a "discount for cash", you know full well that the discount is your small share of the VAT and income tax that the tradesman is avoiding.
Not even close.ks. When you get a "discount for cash", you know full well that the discount is your small share of the VAT and income tax that the tradesman is avoiding.How do you know the tradesman is VAT registered?
They might not just want the hassle of handling cheques, the cost of credit card usage or myriad other reasons (in addition to maybe wanting to evade tax).
The tradesman will have an accountant (possibly) and will complete tax returns (definitely). It's not the customer's job to check these things, it's HMRC's. If they cannot do this adequately then their staff and/or processes and/or the rules need changing.
But the day a politician points the finger at themselves will be the day I sprout wings and start colonising Mars.
This is just another example of attention being diverted away from the real problems. Just as all the banker bashing is (some people just aren't seeing the link as they can relate better to Fred with his ladder and bucket).
Eric Mc said:
Not every business needs to register for VAT.
Smaller traders are often trading below the VAT threshold so have no legal obligation to issue an invoice and it would be downright illegal to issue a VAT invoice if you aren't VAT registered.
I think the VAT registration threshold is about £77,000.Smaller traders are often trading below the VAT threshold so have no legal obligation to issue an invoice and it would be downright illegal to issue a VAT invoice if you aren't VAT registered.
So assuming that income tax at both the basic rate and higher rate ( income over £34,370 ) is paid, then sure it is possible that plenty of tradesman don't qualify.
The problem is, if they don't invoice you and record the VAT, insisting on cash, what are the chances they will declare the cash for income tax purposes? I would wager that not all the cash received is recorded on the books for income tax purposes...
I’m not a moralistical person but I couldn’t justify making cash payments if I suspected I was assisting someone in committing fraud.
The problem is that, while I’d love to live without taxation, I’m a bit of a “user” when it comes to the services that government provides (roads, national parks, waterways, scientific research, police, armed services, formerly being the beneficiary of a public education and perhaps needing healthcare in future...etc.) By all means I’ll express my displeasure about aspects of expenditure by voting (and I encourage people to badger and pressure MPs, write letters or even run for election) but tax evasion...is akin to theft from ordinary honest people.
There are plenty of places I could live, pay no (or lower) tax and hence opt out of social contract...but I don’t really want to live in any of those places because I enjoy the benefits and safety of cooperative social contract. While I have that option evasion is theft.
The problem is that, while I’d love to live without taxation, I’m a bit of a “user” when it comes to the services that government provides (roads, national parks, waterways, scientific research, police, armed services, formerly being the beneficiary of a public education and perhaps needing healthcare in future...etc.) By all means I’ll express my displeasure about aspects of expenditure by voting (and I encourage people to badger and pressure MPs, write letters or even run for election) but tax evasion...is akin to theft from ordinary honest people.
There are plenty of places I could live, pay no (or lower) tax and hence opt out of social contract...but I don’t really want to live in any of those places because I enjoy the benefits and safety of cooperative social contract. While I have that option evasion is theft.
Adrian W said:
Mermaid said:
I worry about the same when I pay my Vodafone bill or to any of the big corporates - does the taxman get his fair share?
Nope!But they would argue it's not fair, taxman says you owe us 10 billion, they say we will give you five, taxman says "OK then" unlike the rest of us they are big enough to fight back. Could you imagine customs vans turning up at all Vodaphone premises, locking the doors and seizing everything.
toppstuff said:
ViperPict said:
The average member of the public and tradesmen are the root cause of the tax deficit in this country and should be targeted. Clearly.
Definitely not the super-rich who, in the UK alone, have avoiding paying AT LEAST £1TN.
It's obvious, isn't it?
Tories trying to put a smoke screen up to protect their own financial interests and that of their super-rich chums?
Devils advocate here, but lets stop and think about your statement...Definitely not the super-rich who, in the UK alone, have avoiding paying AT LEAST £1TN.
It's obvious, isn't it?
Tories trying to put a smoke screen up to protect their own financial interests and that of their super-rich chums?
If you take ALL the people who take cash in hand without providing a VAT invoice - all the plumbers, painters, mobile hairdressers etc etc .... I bet it would add to just as huge a sum of money. Why should they be immune from this debate?
And as for the "super rich" in the UK, an awful lot of ignorant b
ks is spoken. If you are domiciled in the UK it is actually bloody hard to not pay taxes here. And the country has plenty of old Tories who have and continue to pay a lot of taxes, including massive inheritance tax when they pop their clogs and pass on the family mansion to their next descendent Rupert.The biggest loop hole are the non-domiciles - there are many VERY rich people with homes in the UK who are actually from other countries. For them, the UK is a tax haven. But the involvement of these non-domiciles is pretty complicated - certainly in London they are holding up high property prices, keeping the restaurants full and spending their cash. So they end up paying a lot of VAT.
It's not as cut and dried as you make out. Just sayin...
There's NO WAY that the cumulative amount of tax not being paid on 'homers' comes to that. Say there are 1 million tradesmen taking cash in hand payments in the UK (I'd imagine there's nowhere near that number), they'd EACH need to have had had £6M of work to avoid enough tax (if they did that 100% of the time!) to cumulatively make up the £1TN. Apparently the figure is more likely to be closer to £2TN also.
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