The Gender Unicorn

[WinstonWolf]

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

FlyingMeeces said:

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

what is your basis for asserting that the term cisgender is offensive ? other than your bloodyminded bigotry un encumbered by your utter lack of self awareness and insight as once again we come to the privleged party claiming to be offended by a term ywt happily slurring anyone different from them ...

I have been entirely polite throughout, unlike your good self...

[mph1977]

WinstonWolf said:

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

FlyingMeeces said:

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

what is your basis for asserting that the term cisgender is offensive ? other than your bloodyminded bigotry unencumbered by your utter lack of self awareness and insight as once again we come to the privleged party claiming to be offended by a term yet happily slurring anyone different from them ...

I have been entirely polite throughout, unlike your good self...

the problem Mr Wolf is that you have form on such bigotry on PH and have never been able to provide a justification for your out of step assertion

your bigotry and use of slur words is evidenced by your posts , as is your mis use of 'normal' to refer to cisgendered heterosexuals ( presumably of white anglo-saxon / aryan stock ?) the fact you only see the world through the cisgendered binary and consider that to be adequate , counter to the law of the land and the evidence base and expert opinion of the majority of clinicians seems to be of no account to you.

the fact you continue with the line you take demonstrates your lack of insight and self awareness.

which points to the the typical ignorant bigotry of those who hold privlege ,

Edited by mph1977 on Wednesday 17th August 11:26

[230TE]

FredClogs said:

Anyway it all falls over when you get to these people...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom#Sexual_...

"Plushophilia". Poor old Eeyore.

[WinstonWolf]

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

FlyingMeeces said:

You cannot, however, compel people to use words which are offensive to them: and setting up one half of a binary state of being as 'normal', therefore enabling you to declare all others, in an inborn and unchangeable state 'abnormal', and then implicitly insist that we refer to ourselves in that way, is most certainly offensive.

I'd go so far as to identify it as an attempt at bullying.

So sorry, but no dice. Would you like to make up another word for us to use? I'm not sure how well it'd catch on, mind.

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

what is your basis for asserting that the term cisgender is offensive ? other than your bloodyminded bigotry unencumbered by your utter lack of self awareness and insight as once again we come to the privleged party claiming to be offended by a term yet happily slurring anyone different from them ...

I have been entirely polite throughout, unlike your good self...

the problem Mr Wolf is that you have form on such bigotry on PH and have never been able to provide a justification for your out of step assertion

your bigotry and use of slur words is evidenced by your posts , as is your mis use of 'normal' to refer to cisgendered heterosexuals ( presumably of white anglo-saxon / aryan stock ?) the fact you only see the world through the cisgendered binary and consider that to be adequate , counter to the law of the land and the evidence base and expert opinion of the majority of clinicians seems to be of no account to you.

the fact you continue with the line you take demonstrates your lack of insight and self awareness.

which points to the the typical ignorant bigotry of those who hold privlege ,

Edited by mph1977 on Wednesday 17th August 11:26

So you would like to employ double standards? Interesting... In your world it's OK for you to be prejudiced and to insult people, but you'd like them to be respectful towards your special needs?

I'm afraid you can't have your cake and eat it.

[technodup]

Blue Oval84 said:

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans"

Of course there is, because (certainly 'cis') is used exclusively by SJWs. And it ONLY ever comes up in discussions around how their viewpoint is more 'progressive' than others.

[FlyingMeeces]

technodup said:

Blue Oval84 said:

You realise that there's no connotations to this word don't you? "Cis" and "Trans"

Of course there is, because (certainly 'cis') is used exclusively by SJWs. And it ONLY ever comes up in discussions around how their viewpoint is more 'progressive' than others.

Are all trans people 'SJWs' (what exactly is a SJW in your book?) then?

Cis is the opposite of trans. That's all.

It's like suggesting only SJWs ever describe people as British, or oh hell I dunno, tall, brown-eyed, Geordie, whatever. It's a factual descriptive term without reference to or connotations of anybody's opinion or value of the described group of people.

Interestingly the only identifiable actual group I'm aware of who strongly object to use of the word cis is radical feminists like Julie Bindel and Germaine Greer.

They are not a nice bunch.

[J4CKO]

these CIS people are everywhere, they have their own building and Insurance company in Manchester !

[technodup]

FlyingMeeces said:

Cis is the opposite of trans. That's all.

There's already a word in common usage which adequately describes the non trans population, in context of their 'trans-ness'.

Some people equate with it a negative connotation though, which is fine, so long as I can do the same for cis.

[Lucas CAV]

WinstonWolf said:

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

Sorry, but why is CIS offensive to you?

[eddharris]

Lucas CAV said:

WinstonWolf said:

Bullying

Do you believe you can use offensive language then demand to be treated differently?

Please do not use cis, it is offensive. You can use male and female as has always been the way if you wish.

Sorry, but why is CIS offensive to you?

I don't usually agree much with Winston but I'm in the same camp on this one. What weird times we're in, in my opinion of course.

I foolishly used to think dick equals male and no dick equals female, or cheating husband from South America somewhere. Now I feel shallow, non-progressive and dirty.

Edited by eddharris on Wednesday 17th August 13:12

[FredClogs]

J4CKO said:

these CIS people are everywhere, they have their own building and Insurance company in Manchester !

I have the pun "CIS stairs" are doing it for themselves (and the song) in my head now... Lennox and Franklin have much to answer for.

[Blue Oval84]

WinstonWolf said:

It's irrelevant, do you want people to respect your wishes and not use terms that you find offensive? If so you also have to respect the wishes of others.

Well, only assuming the others don't wish to cause offense. Don't think for a moment that it's not obvious what your angle is here, calling you "normal" would therefore make anyone who doesn't fit your mould "abnormal".

Someone else has already done the ginger analogy, they are not "normal" according to the dictionary definition, but to call them abnormal is quite simply offensive. The same goes for trans people.

I don't believe for a second that you don't realise what you're suggesting. I also think that it's risible that you, to paraphrase, only believe you shouldn't have to offend an LGBT person provided they're willing to accept your assertion that they aren't normal.

They have as much right to refer to themselves as normal as you do, so sorry, no dice, won't be using "normal" to describe straight non-trans individuals. Although I'll happily call you "non-trans" if that makes you feel better about it? (Although this whole bloody thing is more or less hypothetical as I have only ever once in my whole life had to specifically state that someone is not-trans, it's hardly like your gender is a routine topic of conversation)

You still haven't answered what's wrong with "cis", given that it has never been used as a slur, it's literally and medically the correct terminology. I also presume no one has ever used the term to discriminate against you or anyone you know. It's no more offensive than calling someone a Homo sapiens. So, where's the offense.

[FlyingMeeces]

technodup said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Cis is the opposite of trans. That's all.

There's already a word in common usage which adequately describes the non trans population, in context of their 'trans-ness'.

Some people equate with it a negative connotation though, which is fine, so long as I can do the same for cis.

Please share this word which means specifically 'people who are not trans'? We've been asking, but nobody has obliged.

'Normal' is incredibly subjective. It does not mean cis or cisgender, because it can mean almost anything. I have no objection to an alternative and equally non-pejorative word meaning 'not trans', but there isn't one, and it wouldn't in any case assist those chucking their teddies at the suggestion that such a word exist, so can we maybe stop wasting time now? Great attempt at derailing what has been a fairly positive and interesting discussion of a ridiculous cartoon purple unicorn, though. Guess trans and cis people actually talking to each other and laughing at said unicorn is just that upsetting, to be worth so much effort to disrupt.

[FredClogs]

This can all be solved if instead of using the term Cis and Trans we said Cisgendered and Transgendered. I don't think there can be any argument then that the prefixes refer entirely to the persons gender and nothing else about their personality.

[didelydoo]

I guess rub of matter is that no one, out with the trans community, appears to use the word Cis- 99% of the population will be unaware of what cisgendered even means.

Is it not just the same as using hetro or straight?

[WinstonWolf]

Blue Oval84 said:

WinstonWolf said:

It's irrelevant, do you want people to respect your wishes and not use terms that you find offensive? If so you also have to respect the wishes of others.

Well, only assuming the others don't wish to cause offense. Don't think for a moment that it's not obvious what your angle is here, calling you "normal" would therefore make anyone who doesn't fit your mould "abnormal".

Someone else has already done the ginger analogy, they are not "normal" according to the dictionary definition, but to call them abnormal is quite simply offensive. The same goes for trans people.

I don't believe for a second that you don't realise what you're suggesting. I also think that it's risible that you, to paraphrase, only believe you shouldn't have to offend an LGBT person provided they're willing to accept your assertion that they aren't normal.

They have as much right to refer to themselves as normal as you do, so sorry, no dice, won't be using "normal" to describe straight non-trans individuals. Although I'll happily call you "non-trans" if that makes you feel better about it? (Although this whole bloody thing is more or less hypothetical as I have only ever once in my whole life had to specifically state that someone is not-trans, it's hardly like your gender is a routine topic of conversation)

You still haven't answered what's wrong with "cis", given that it has never been used as a slur, it's literally and medically the correct terminology. I also presume no one has ever used the term to discriminate against you or anyone you know. It's no more offensive than calling someone a Homo sapiens. So, where's the offense.

I'm equally happy with the traditional man or woman, it doesn't have to be 'normal'. There are more than enough terms already in the dictionary, just don't use cis unless you intend to cause offence.

Let's be honest, if it wasn't for that fking ridiculous unicorn (who thought that was acceptable?) we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

[FlyingMeeces]

didelydoo said:

I guess rub of matter is that no one, out with the trans community, appears to use the word Cis- 99% of the population will be unaware of what cisgendered even means.

Is it not just the same as using hetro or straight?

Yep, it's the gender equivalent of straight for sexuality. Gay/lesbian/bi* or straight, and then trans or cis.

Pretty much the same but I guess with the level of awareness that goes along with the numbers involved. It's something like 10%+ of the population that have a sexuality other than straight, but maybe 2% at the most are trans, perhaps a few more if you count those who will never come out or transition. There are a good few cis people who do use the term, especially in more left wing and younger communities eg on tumblr, at university etc, and of course family/friends/colleagues of trans folk and others with higher than average general awareness for whatever reason, but you're right, it's not a whole lot of people. To my knowledge we've only had one out trans county councillor in England, compared to however many out LGB folk in councils, as MPs, House of Lords and so on.

(*pansexual etc etc etc it's a shame we don't have as convenient and non-weighted an umbrella word as 'trans' for non-straight folks really)

[FredClogs]

Me Uncle Jamal say him is trisexual

Him say he try anything sexual.

- Ali G

[Blue Oval84]

WinstonWolf said:

I'm equally happy with the traditional man or woman, it doesn't have to be 'normal'. There are more than enough terms already in the dictionary, just don't use cis unless you intend to cause offence.

I still don't understand where the offense comes from though? I could explain why if someone called me, for example, a faggot, that I may find it offensive (word has a long history of being used as a slur - therefore it indicates that they're trying to cause offense, therefore I'm offended sort of thing - although in reality I'd just shout back an equally colourful phrase ) I just genuinely don't get it with "cis-gender", as far as I know it's never been used as a slur, it doesn't have a double meaning etc. That's the bit that I'm confused by.

WinstonWolf said:

Let's be honest, if it wasn't for that fking ridiculous unicorn (who thought that was acceptable?) we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.

Agreed. It is ridiculous. Maybe it's served a purpose though as regardless of the seemingly irreconcilable differences in views, it's always interesting to encounter them.

[technodup]

FlyingMeeces said:

technodup said:

FlyingMeeces said:

Cis is the opposite of trans. That's all.

There's already a word in common usage which adequately describes the non trans population, in context of their 'trans-ness'.

Some people equate with it a negative connotation though, which is fine, so long as I can do the same for cis.

Please share this word which means specifically 'people who are not trans'? We've been asking, but nobody has obliged.

'Normal' is incredibly subjective.

You've answered it yourself. In the context of trans-ness, when you accept only 2% of people are, then there is no better word for the other 98%.

normal
ˈnɔːm(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.

What could be more standard or expected than 98%? That's not to say they're not abnormal in some other sense, having a 15" cock for example.

Having met one trans person in 38 years it's really not something I lose any sleep over, offended or not.