80 years ago today - Britain Declares War on Germany

[anonymous-user]

One of the U47 torpedoes that didn’t go off, even washed up, or was discovered by a boat (I can’t remember which) a few years ago.

I used to swim across there as a kid, It’s incredible what he managed to get a submarine through there undetected and it had a lasting effect on the war regarding the British fleet and how it was based and used.

If it was an allied mission it would be as, if not more famous than the dam busters etc.

Scapa flow is also where the German high seas fleet ended up after ww1 and was scuttled.

https://goo.gl/maps/S8xN8S4PpVBY6ADM9

This a street view link to the gap, which on the Churchill barrier built afterwards. You might have to pan around to see it. There was also four large ships sunk here to stop anyone getting through.

[Zirconia]

I was going to drop it in on the date but we were very fortunate that H was a terrible leader and did not listen to the people that wanted the resources to hit the ground running in the U boat war, and indeed start at a later date. Turning point was not until 1943. Important not to forget the merchant navy.

[Eric Mc]

My model club was given a talk a couple of months ago by a German historian in which he emphasised how Hitler squandered resources investing in large capital ships instead of building more U-Boats.

[aeropilot]

Zirconia said:

but we were very fortunate that H was a terrible military leader

EFA

So much so that by 1943 Churchill put an end to the various plans to assassinate H on the basis that he was doing such a good job of loosing the war.

[InitialDave]

El stovey said:

Scapa flow is also where the German high seas fleet ended up after ww1 and was scuttled.

The lack of radioactive contamination due to the processing/manufacturing being completed before the nuclear age means that the metal from these ships has been used as the basis for making comparative measurement of radiation in things like geiger counters.

[Zirconia]

Eric Mc said:

My model club was given a talk a couple of months ago by a German historian in which he emphasised how Hitler squandered resources investing in large capital ships instead of building more U-Boats.

As I understand it and probably need correcting and please do if I am wrong.
Nearly all the way through a book by Jonathan Dimbleby on the subject, "the Battle of the Atlantic" and other tomes of interest already finished. Dimbleby is more the politics than what happened on what date and how and the way that Hitler played his top staffers was really surreal. Raeder and Donitz were played off against each other and Goring lording it over the two of them (made loads of claims and failed to deliver on many). They were resource poor going to war as well. Build planes, ships or u boats. Aircraft was Goring and he was Hitlers besty, so down to the ships and u boats to argue the toss. Loss of Bizmark had an impact on the thinking of Hitler and then the shift to build U boats but the losses in 1943 were too great and obvious they had lost.

As an aside the German Navy codes were targeted for collection on a few occasions (accidents and intent) and Donitz got an enquiry going as to why his U boat would turn up where a convoy should have been but they had zigged away. Hubris in the belief it was un breakable led them to stay with it, an alteration that did cause an issue was all. Had they proven the allies were reading their codes, it could have been a dramatic shift across all the forces. The Germans were reading the UK Navy codes daily and within hours. That is another topic and one that needs to be seen with Bletchley Park as the core.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_code_breaking...

aeropilot said:

EFA

So much so that by 1943 Churchill put an end to the various plans to assassinate H on the basis that he was doing such a good job of loosing the war.

I did leave it at my post meaning to encompass the lot, reading somewhere they would have been bankrupt not long after 45?? Cannot pin that down at the moment. Poor man manager as well. Sea power was way above his ability.

[Eric Mc]

Hitler liked the idea of his subordinates competing against each other for resources. It tied in with his thinking that the best would rise to the top. In reality it resulted in conflicting government departments and poor lines of demarcation as to was responsible for what. It was a key factor in Germany's overall inefficiency in managing the war.

[Zirconia]

He was also influenced by whoever was ascendant at the time.

[Eric Mc]

Zirconia said:

He was also influenced by whoever was ascendant at the time.

Part of the same mind set. If someone was ascendant, then they were beating their opponent and obviously deserved to be rewarded by access to The Fuhrer's ear.

[IanH755]

Been in Europe for a few days (Paris/Barcelona) but, apart from the French Musee de L'ARMEE, there was nothing happening to honour the 80th anniversary, was there anything happening in the UK?

[RedWhiteMonkey]

IanH755 said:

Been in Europe for a few days (Paris/Barcelona) but, apart from the French Musee de L'ARMEE, there was nothing happening to honour the 80th anniversary, was there anything happening in the UK?

Not that surprising really, anniversaries are normally 25, 50, 75, 100, 150, etc years. I wouldn't expect Spain to do anything, they weren't directly involved.

[anonymous-user]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

IanH755 said:

Been in Europe for a few days (Paris/Barcelona) but, apart from the French Musee de L'ARMEE, there was nothing happening to honour the 80th anniversary, was there anything happening in the UK?

Not that surprising really, anniversaries are normally 25, 50, 75, 100, 150, etc years. I wouldn't expect Spain to do anything, they weren't directly involved.

Apart from helping train the Luftwaffe before it started.

Interesting that Hitler wanted Franco to invade Gibraltar but he was worried the British would then take over the canaries. Which we have now anyway.

Spanish unofficially fought on both sides with Spanish troops on the eastern front against the Russians and others joining the french and being amongst the first allied forces to enter Paris.

[so called]

Cant read all of this thread at work but looking forward to this evening.
It feels strange to think that I was born only 13 years after the end of WW2.
At the same time the memories of older peoples emotions and many of the games we played as kids were all about the war.
Watching World at War (the first time round) and my Dad commenting from his experiences only a few short years before.

Very interesting.

[Eric Mc]

so called said:

Cant read all of this thread at work but looking forward to this evening.
It feels strange to think that I was born only 13 years after the end of WW2.
At the same time the memories of older peoples emotions and many of the games we played as kids were all about the war.
Watching World at War (the first time round) and my Dad commenting from his experiences only a few short years before.

Very interesting.

Our generation grew up surrounded by the lore of World War 2 - whether it was reading war stories in comics, watching Hollywood blockbuster war movies or building Airfix Spitfires and Messerschmitts. It was still real, live and very fresh history.

[Zirconia]

Speaking of on this day.
https://twitter.com/bletchleypark/status/116957855...
Polish cryptographers evacuate from Warsaw.

[alfaman]

Eric Mc said:

My model club was given a talk a couple of months ago by a German historian in which he emphasised how Hitler squandered resources investing in large capital ships instead of building more U-Boats.

German armaments strategy and organisation was deeply flawed in several areas.

Luftwaffe had a lot of internal squabbles plus an interfering Goerring.

and they never developed / productionised an effective heavy 4 engine long range bomber - partly due to a policy of 2 engines only.

And a daft policy that all bombers must have dive bombing capability.

and Luftwaffe got ridiculously involved in having ground troops and other distractions.

And ME262 Was too late and too few made

Quite stupid, misled and short sighted.

[vonuber]

One of my (i assume close, we have a pretty unique name and even now there is only like 20 or so in the world i have found) relatives appears on a uboat interrogation form.
Oddly enough he is on the german side, rather than the polish side.
From what i can see two branches of the family ended up on different sides - which given how fluid borders were at the end of ww1 is not surprising.

[aeropilot]

alfaman said:

Luftwaffe had a lot of internal squabbles plus an interfering Goerring.

That was as much to do with Goring, and his political influence within the Nazi Party. People got into positions based on them towing the political line, rather than their military skills.
It could be said, things are no different today in many military forces!

alfaman said:

and they never developed / productionised an effective heavy 4 engine long range bomber - partly due to a policy of 2 engines only.

And a daft policy that all bombers must have dive bombing capability.

Because the whole pre-war German military was designed around the ethos of Blitzkrieg, with the Luftwaffe being pretty much a tactical airforce only to support the land forces, and thus having no strategic role.

alfaman said:

And ME262 Was too late and too few made

Largely as a result of Allied stategic bombing hindering production, plus a certain person then insisting it be turned into a bomber.

[vonuber]

aeropilot said:

Because the whole pre-war German military was designed around the ethos of Blitzkrieg, with the Luftwaffe being pretty much a tactical airforce only to support the land forces, and thus having no strategic role.

Small point, blitzkrieg was a western invention. German tactics built off their historical traditions of manoeuvre warfare, utilising modern machinery.

The main german innovation in the use of armour was concentration of force.

Right about the Luftwaffe being mobile artillery though.

[Ayahuasca]

When did we stop saying ‘war on Germany’ and start saying ‘war on the nazis’?