NHS "Pay Rise" of 1% (real term pay cut)

[take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey]

JagLover said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.

Not sure the relevance of international pay rises?.

As for the UK we will wait and see where pay rises in the private sector for 2021 end up. Many private sector employers had a pay freeze in 2020 and many cut pay.

Not sure the relevance of comparing sectors where there have been pay freezes?

Average is still 2.4%

[JagLover]

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

JagLover said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.

Not sure the relevance of international pay rises?.

As for the UK we will wait and see where pay rises in the private sector for 2021 end up. Many private sector employers had a pay freeze in 2020 and many cut pay.

Not sure the relevance of comparing sectors where there have been pay freezes?

Average is still 2.4%

You have to be careful about the statistics around pay at present due to the significant fall in employment, which has been concentrated among low paid service work.

As the ONS points out in the February 2021 release

ONS said:

Changes in the profile of employee jobs in the economy will affect average pay growth; a decrease in employee numbers in jobs that have lower pay can have an upward effect on average pay, and vice versa. This is particularly important to consider at present because both of the two main sources of information about number of employee or employee jobs paid through payroll (HM Revenue and Custom's Pay As You Earn Real Time Information, and the Office for National Statistics' (ONS's) Monthly Wages and Salaries Survey) identify a year-on-year fall of close to 2.5%. We consider such compositional effects from three angles.

So it is possible that like for like pay has fallen since the start of lockdown.

[wiggy001]

JagLover said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.

Not sure the relevance of international pay rises?.

As for the UK we will wait and see where pay rises in the private sector for 2021 end up. Many private sector employers had a pay freeze in 2020 and many cut pay.

I’m not sure of the relevance of private sector pay rises either. Some parts of the private sector award bonuses and pay rises based on company profits, so there will always be large rises and bonuses for those firms doing well in order to attract and keep the best staff.

[take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey]

wiggy001 said:

I’m not sure of the relevance of private sector pay rises either. Some parts of the private sector award bonuses and pay rises based on company profits, so there will always be large rises and bonuses for those firms doing well in order to attract and keep the best staff.

It's relevant because in a down turn we're all in it together, but in an economic boom that pact is quickly forgotten.

And of course why would you want to attract bright young things into the NHS ("keep and attract the best staff")... There are a few million out of work, just drag them in to do the surgical procedures. And everyone complains how badly run it is....paying less will really encouraging those transformative leaders to come across and fix it.

[Brainpox]

I don’t see the relevance of private sector pay. Around here, at least in my profession, the private sector pays less but offers more sociable hours. People don’t move to private for the pay anymore.

[MrJuice]

Nice. Now, why is it that consultant psychiatrists retire ten years before their consultant colleagues in other specialties?

Working near permanent nights might work for you. And will definitely (rightly) bring in extra money. But that st takes its toll on your body and will catch up with you at some point. Sorry for being blunt, but that is the truth. See extensive research on this.

I have worked across pretty much every specialty in my training to be a doctor and nurses universally work hard. They should be paid a decent and fair basic salary. Having to do extra work should not be the norm to make ends meet. Taking away the nursing bursary and paying newly qualified nurses 20k or whatever it is. Takes the piss. fk you tories you fking morons

andy118run said:

Just my take on things, FWIW -

I'm a band 5 NHS staff nurse, working in mental health (for 15 + yrs now).
So not 'front line', though I have had to work with covid positive patients.
And we have had an outbreak among staff - probably 50pc or so of my colleagues have had covid.
But then so has the local chicken factory, supermarket etc, part of working in a pandemic I suppose.

Personally, I can't get myself wound up/offended by the 1pc pay offer - as mentioned, the rest of the public sector is getting nothing and many people in the country will be losing their jobs.
I'm thankful I kind of fell into this secure profession many years ago. I'm not a member of any nursing union, so 'striking' is out of the question, and I wouldn't even if I was a member.

Why am I not worried about pay?
-Well, I'm top of my band anyway so the basic pay is okay.
-I work mainly nights so my pay is pretty much always 'time and a third' (or more for Sundays/bank holidays).
-I can work as many 'bank' shifts as I want - just been sorting my 'bank' for June - any night shift I want is available - think I picked up 5 shifts in the end which will be worth about £1200 extra to me (after tax).
-But I have a wife who works, and child care responsibilities plus a life to live, so I can't be at work all the time.
-And of course, we've been locked down for the last year, nowhere much to spend our money, so all the 'bank' I've done plus plenty of my basic salary has been accumulating in my bank account.
-when my pay arrives at the end of this month, I know in the last financial year I will have been paid around £51k, and I really haven't stretched myself that much - probably averaging 2 or 3 extra shifts per month.

So when I read of outraged nurses struggling to make ends meet, having to use food banks etc.etc., demanding a fair wage, I really can't relate to that.

Anyway, I'll continue to watch this story with interest, see how it plays out, but I can't help but think there's a very vocal minority, easily offended, banging their drums, demanding 'fair' pay etc. While the majority of nurses like me are sitting here quite comfortably and very grateful for what we have.

[youngsyr]

Andeh1 said:

But that's what the job is? This isn't a sudden "armed forces now playing nurses & doctors.. Give them money for this extra birden"... Its doctors & nurses doing what doctors & nurses are paid for. People get sick, people die, NHS staff get paid to staff it.

Everything else has been dropped, canceled or reduced to allow them to focus on covid. People dieing in A&E is now people dieing of covid. People dieing of winter flu are now dieing of covid, car crashes? Sports injuries? Brawling outside the pub? Gym injuries? Nope, all down because of lockdown.

I havnt had a 12% pay rise adding together my last 8 years, what I have done is worry about my security & future employment prospects at the economy tanks & my business barely survived...

What have nurses/docs done above & beyond to deserve above & beyond pay rises (genuine question)?

I thought I'd already pointed out clearly what they had done above and beyond to deserve more than 1%, but you seem to want to ignore it.

A huge number have risked their lives and 230 have been killed by Covid.

How many of your colleagues have sacrificed their lives for their job???

Apparently thats just part of being a nurse though, right?

[JagLover]

In terms of the whole public private pay differential debate

This is the latest data

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55089900#:~:text=The%20...

Unadjusted for education and qualifications public sector workers get around 9% more. After adjusting for that they get paid about the same as workers in the private sector.

There was a time when they were paid a significant premium, during the Labour years, but that has faded due to pay restraint since 2010.

This analysis does of course exclude the elephant in the room, which is pensions, and which are far more generous in the public sector.

Edited by JagLover on Saturday 6th March 08:07

[A Winner Is You]

youngsyr said:

Andeh1 said:

But that's what the job is? This isn't a sudden "armed forces now playing nurses & doctors.. Give them money for this extra birden"... Its doctors & nurses doing what doctors & nurses are paid for. People get sick, people die, NHS staff get paid to staff it.

Everything else has been dropped, canceled or reduced to allow them to focus on covid. People dieing in A&E is now people dieing of covid. People dieing of winter flu are now dieing of covid, car crashes? Sports injuries? Brawling outside the pub? Gym injuries? Nope, all down because of lockdown.

I havnt had a 12% pay rise adding together my last 8 years, what I have done is worry about my security & future employment prospects at the economy tanks & my business barely survived...

What have nurses/docs done above & beyond to deserve above & beyond pay rises (genuine question)?

I thought I'd already pointed out clearly what they had done above and beyond to deserve more than 1%, but you seem to want to ignore it.

A huge number have risked their lives and 230 have been killed by Covid.

How many of your colleagues have sacrificed their lives for their job???

Apparently thats just part of being a nurse though, right?

What about all the other sectors that have risked their lives working through this?

[paulw123]

Carrot said:

Boris should agree with their demands, as long as they can’t wait just 3 more weeks. Because we all know what that means.

Isn’t it wait 5 weeks these days?

[take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey]

JagLover said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

JagLover said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.

Not sure the relevance of international pay rises?.

As for the UK we will wait and see where pay rises in the private sector for 2021 end up. Many private sector employers had a pay freeze in 2020 and many cut pay.

Not sure the relevance of comparing sectors where there have been pay freezes?

Average is still 2.4%

You have to be careful about the statistics around pay at present due to the significant fall in employment, which has been concentrated among low paid service work.

As the ONS points out in the February 2021 release

ONS said:

Changes in the profile of employee jobs in the economy will affect average pay growth; a decrease in employee numbers in jobs that have lower pay can have an upward effect on average pay, and vice versa. This is particularly important to consider at present because both of the two main sources of information about number of employee or employee jobs paid through payroll (HM Revenue and Custom's Pay As You Earn Real Time Information, and the Office for National Statistics' (ONS's) Monthly Wages and Salaries Survey) identify a year-on-year fall of close to 2.5%. We consider such compositional effects from three angles.

So it is possible that like for like pay has fallen since the start of lockdown.

It's also highly likely that inflation will be way above 1 percent by the end of the year.

After every recession in history there has always been a period of rapid inflation as spending returns... Once lockdown eases and some normality returns the public will go spending mad. We saw it after the last one briefly.

I'm certainly not advocating for 12.5 percent but the UK needs to tread lightly as it has spent the goodwill it had in the NHS.

Many NHS workers look at their neighbours who have been on 80 percent pay 'on holiday', at the huge crowds of dheads gathering to go sledging, at the billions thrown at questionable covid related contracts, and are sick of it.

They're now being told to burden part of the spending recovery by being offered what in reality by the end of 21 will likely be a pay cut.

It's a better pill to swallow.

[Derek Smith]

TTmonkey said:

Quisling said:

Don't forget the average wage of a nurse is £36K

Which is apparently abject poverty and they are forced to use food banks

Strange as i would consider £36K to be a damn decent wage

Don’t know what you do, but have you considered nursing?

It's the obvious question TT.

The problem with nursing, as with policing, is that they don’t strike. They can be pushed around by governments, so they are pushed around.

When the police do something well against danger, such as the response to the London Bridge terrorist attack, governments will heap praise on them and many MPs with be photographed with them. But they won’t do anything practical, like invest. It’s the same with nurses. Great for photo-ops, but not worth paying a wage that will take inflation into account.

When unemployment was high and police pay was at its highest (and since), a PC from Tower Bridge nick (Mets) used to take recruitment forms on patrol. When someone mentioned the high pay, as above, he used to hand them one of the forms.

It’s nothing more than a pathetic moan. The opportunity was there, they didn’t take it. Why should they have all this money when I don’t?

In effect, it’s a pay cut, dressed up by politicians to look like an increase. It’s what governments do.

As the father of a daughter who left nursing because of poor pay and conditions, I know how they struggle, what they have to put up with and, as shown by my daughter, most can move from nursing to a higher paid job in private industry.

[T6 vanman]

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

1) And private sector pay rises are significantly more than that... Internationally 4.4 percent average. And within the UK most sectors are way above 1 percent.

2) My wife is NHS, she's been working 14-15 hour days for the last twelve months now, and also working at the weekend. This is far from unusaul in the NHS at moment. She's contracted for 37 hours.

Perhaps they should all just put in an overtime claim instead or work the hours they're paid for?

The general theme in the UK is that we're all in it together when there needs to some spending reductions, but in an economic boom the private sectors simply forgets that pact.

As others have said
1) Not sure relevance with International pay average
2) We thank you wife's efforts .. It must be challenging to keep your marriage going whilst your wife gets up at 5am for a shift start at 6am and working 15 hours until 9pm so not getting home before 10pm 7 days a week, for the last 12 months ... This is what you wrote for 2

[PF62]

Surprised the press hasn't picked up on the HMRC pay deal which was agreed recently - 13% over three years (3% for 20-21, then 5% and 5%).

https://arcunion.org.uk/hmrc-pay-ballot-2021/

https://www.pcs.org.uk/pcs-in-hm-revenue-and-custo...

[T6 vanman]

A Winner Is You said:

youngsyr said:

Andeh1 said:

But that's what the job is? This isn't a sudden "armed forces now playing nurses & doctors.. Give them money for this extra birden"... Its doctors & nurses doing what doctors & nurses are paid for. People get sick, people die, NHS staff get paid to staff it.

Everything else has been dropped, canceled or reduced to allow them to focus on covid. People dieing in A&E is now people dieing of covid. People dieing of winter flu are now dieing of covid, car crashes? Sports injuries? Brawling outside the pub? Gym injuries? Nope, all down because of lockdown.

I havnt had a 12% pay rise adding together my last 8 years, what I have done is worry about my security & future employment prospects at the economy tanks & my business barely survived...

What have nurses/docs done above & beyond to deserve above & beyond pay rises (genuine question)?

I thought I'd already pointed out clearly what they had done above and beyond to deserve more than 1%, but you seem to want to ignore it.

A huge number have risked their lives and 230 have been killed by Covid.

How many of your colleagues have sacrificed their lives for their job???

Apparently thats just part of being a nurse though, right?

What about all the other sectors that have risked their lives working through this?

Just to pick up this 230 number,
[-] UK adult population 50,000,000,
NHS workers 1,100,000
UK deaths from Covid 125,000
Average expectation for covid deaths within a population of 1,100,000 = 2,750.

So the average NHS worker has less than a 1/10 risk of covid death than an average adult due to the procedures and protections in place within the NHS...! [/-]

edited
UK adult 25~70 population 40,000,000
UK deaths 25~70 population 20,500 - if I've read the stat's correctly
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunit...
Average expectation for covid deaths within a population of 1,100,000 = 550.
NHS employed deaths less than half national average ..???

Edited by T6 vanman on Saturday 6th March 09:11

[rossub]

loskie said:

I'm ready for a traditional PH slating here as I work in the public sector for a Govt agency.

I work in a technical role in a specialist industry. Often auditing companies with large turnovers and also dealing with industry related emergency response. I'm paid to work 37 hrs a week, I work a lot more. It's a tough, demanding job.

In 2005 I joined at 35 yrs old on £22.5k salary now in 2021 in the same role(but regularly working way above grade) I'm on £26.4k.

What should that be with inflation? You tell me.

I think the last 10 years have seen a £4k pay rise and now it's been made impossible to rise up through the pay scale which I cannot see other than a breach of contract.

There are some bloody good people that I work with but also a lot that are less so, maybe my tolerance levels are less than they were but unfortunately the latter are on the increase.

No where near as bad as the Local Authority though. They are abysmal here.

You’re a bit of a mug if you’re going above and beyond and working loads of hours without pay on just £26k. Do you not have a Flexi-time system?

Nurses don’t do additional hours for nothing for example, they work shifts.

[TTmonkey]

How easy some people forget.

And it makes you wonder.... how many friends of government have made a fortune thus last 12 months on bent deals.....

[youngsyr]

T6 vanman said:

A Winner Is You said:

youngsyr said:

Andeh1 said:

But that's what the job is? This isn't a sudden "armed forces now playing nurses & doctors.. Give them money for this extra birden"... Its doctors & nurses doing what doctors & nurses are paid for. People get sick, people die, NHS staff get paid to staff it.

Everything else has been dropped, canceled or reduced to allow them to focus on covid. People dieing in A&E is now people dieing of covid. People dieing of winter flu are now dieing of covid, car crashes? Sports injuries? Brawling outside the pub? Gym injuries? Nope, all down because of lockdown.

I havnt had a 12% pay rise adding together my last 8 years, what I have done is worry about my security & future employment prospects at the economy tanks & my business barely survived...

What have nurses/docs done above & beyond to deserve above & beyond pay rises (genuine question)?

I thought I'd already pointed out clearly what they had done above and beyond to deserve more than 1%, but you seem to want to ignore it.

A huge number have risked their lives and 230 have been killed by Covid.

How many of your colleagues have sacrificed their lives for their job???

Apparently thats just part of being a nurse though, right?

What about all the other sectors that have risked their lives working through this?

Just to pick up this 230 number,
UK adult population 50,000,000,
NHS workers 1,100,000
UK deaths from Covid 125,000
Average expectation for covid deaths within a population of 1,100,000 = 2,750.

So the average NHS worker has less than a 1/10 risk of covid death than an average adult due to the procedures and protections in place within the NHS...!

Your grasp on statistical analysis is basic, to say the least.

1) Covid deaths are not evenly distributed amongst the adult population; they are extremely skewed towards the elderly. Something like 90% of deaths are in retired aged people and 98% in over 50s.

2) the 230 deaths number is only for front line NHS workers, not the entire NHS.

That is why front line care staff were in the highest priority group for vaccinations.

Have another try.

[bitchstewie]

TTmonkey said:

How easy some people forget.

And it makes you wonder.... how many friends of government have made a fortune thus last 12 months on bent deals.....

Oh all the procurement was within procedures so it's absolutely fine apparently.

Courtesy of Cold War Steve because sometimes a picture does paint a thousand words.

[T6 vanman]

youngsyr said:

Your grasp on statistical analysis is basic, to say the least.

Have another try.

I was editing whilst you posted ......
What's your answer to "like for like" ratio of less than half the UK population??

It's just a heart string comment that NHS staff are dying due to their job not based on facts