Colin McRae Fatal accident enquiry - Errr why ??
Discussion
erdnase said:
I thought I recalled reading that in one of the articles, but I may be getting my terminology wrong.
I, as a non-aviator, just assumed that any time a helicopter was off the ground, that it would be in "powered flight" - so thought it was an unusual thing to point out in an article/investigation.
Do helicopters often autorotate in normal flight?
Not for long I, as a non-aviator, just assumed that any time a helicopter was off the ground, that it would be in "powered flight" - so thought it was an unusual thing to point out in an article/investigation.
Do helicopters often autorotate in normal flight?
If you can find where you saw it and post the paragraph up to give a bit of context I'm sure someone can clarify it for you.
JaybirdUK said:
He's no longer one of my heroes
Please don't get upset at feet of clay. His ability in a helicopter has nothing to do with what he was like behind the wheel.If you go back through the private lives of many past drivers their faults will be made apparent but it dows not take away from what they were.
I remember at school doing something about the Damn Busters (617) Squadron and then being told to look up a reference where it was shown that Gibson was a racist. Didn't stop him being a leading light in the raid though.
Taking the lives of children through inappropriate risk taking is inexcusable but it doesn't mean he was one of the best and most entertaining rally drivers I've ever seen.
He did something that was reckless, but its a pretty well governed sky up there. I suggest its very easy after any event to point a finger and say lack of experience.
Just because someone doesn't have the qualifications to do something doesn't mean that they aren't pretty good at doing it. I have on a number of times been flown at 100ft or less down the thames, and a few times as a child have been a passenger in an aeroplane that had to pull up for cows!
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
But then I remember being a child and being flown by probably one of the greatest pilots ever, a chap called neville browning. He was mad as a hatter in an airplane, even with me sitting in it. He eventually lost his life in a crash but considering he did things with aeroplanes that defied gravity, and didn't seem to be much for rulebooks or qualifications, I still have a good deal more respect for his ability than someone who stood on the ground and said it was the obvious end to a reckless life.
Just because someone doesn't have the qualifications to do something doesn't mean that they aren't pretty good at doing it. I have on a number of times been flown at 100ft or less down the thames, and a few times as a child have been a passenger in an aeroplane that had to pull up for cows!
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
But then I remember being a child and being flown by probably one of the greatest pilots ever, a chap called neville browning. He was mad as a hatter in an airplane, even with me sitting in it. He eventually lost his life in a crash but considering he did things with aeroplanes that defied gravity, and didn't seem to be much for rulebooks or qualifications, I still have a good deal more respect for his ability than someone who stood on the ground and said it was the obvious end to a reckless life.
julian64 said:
He did something that was reckless, but its a pretty well governed sky up there. I suggest its very easy after any event to point a finger and say lack of experience.
Just because someone doesn't have the qualifications to do something doesn't mean that they aren't pretty good at doing it. I have on a number of times been flown at 100ft or less down the thames, and a few times as a child have been a passenger in an aeroplane that had to pull up for cows!
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
But then I remember being a child and being flown by probably one of the greatest pilots ever, a chap called neville browning. He was mad as a hatter in an airplane, even with me sitting in it. He eventually lost his life in a crash but considering he did things with aeroplanes that defied gravity, and didn't seem to be much for rulebooks or qualifications, I still have a good deal more respect for his ability than someone who stood on the ground and said it was the obvious end to a reckless life.
The point is that he knowingly flew other people without a licence, and therefore no insurance.Just because someone doesn't have the qualifications to do something doesn't mean that they aren't pretty good at doing it. I have on a number of times been flown at 100ft or less down the thames, and a few times as a child have been a passenger in an aeroplane that had to pull up for cows!
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
But then I remember being a child and being flown by probably one of the greatest pilots ever, a chap called neville browning. He was mad as a hatter in an airplane, even with me sitting in it. He eventually lost his life in a crash but considering he did things with aeroplanes that defied gravity, and didn't seem to be much for rulebooks or qualifications, I still have a good deal more respect for his ability than someone who stood on the ground and said it was the obvious end to a reckless life.
That's a really arrogant and sh tty thing to do.
julian64 said:
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
Bloke without valid licence flies low level down a valley and flies a fully functioning Helicopter into the ground with his and someone else's child (who he doesn't have permission from the parents to fly around) on board. What else could he do to be more stupid? Perhaps be drunk or be injecting heroin into his eye whilst he's doing it?
el stovey said:
julian64 said:
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
Bloke without valid licence flies low level down a valley and flies a fully functioning Helicopter into the ground with his and someone else's child (who he doesn't have permission from the parents to fly around) on board. What else could he do to be more stupid? Perhaps be drunk or be injecting heroin into his eye whilst he's doing it?
I don't know, of course, but this has the faint whiff of "do you know who I am" about it.
Soovy said:
The point is that he knowingly flew other people without a licence, and therefore no insurance.
That's a really arrogant and sh tty thing to do.
Not quite! I don't for one second think that he was aware that his licence had expired, I don't think he was that silly .. I suspect it was more of an oversight, which makes the big difference between knowingly doing this(and therefore not being insured) and not. That's a really arrogant and sh tty thing to do.
julian64 said:
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo.
I'll go for a spin down the A1 at 140mph and have a ten pints beforehand. Afterall if I don't push any envelopes how can I be a brilliant driver?Porkis said:
Not quite! I don't for one second think that he was aware that his licence had expired, I don't think he was that silly .. I suspect it was more of an oversight, which makes the big difference between knowingly doing this(and therefore not being insured) and not.
He was in all probability aware that his type rating had expired (as it had previously on two occasions). It seems like he wasn't really the type to be fussed about paperwork and so is just as much to blame as someone who goes for a jaunt in their car without insurance.Porkis said:
Soovy said:
The point is that he knowingly flew other people without a licence, and therefore no insurance.
That's a really arrogant and sh tty thing to do.
Not quite! I don't for one second think that he was aware that his licence had expired, I don't think he was that silly .. I suspect it was more of an oversight, which makes the big difference between knowingly doing this(and therefore not being insured) and not. That's a really arrogant and sh tty thing to do.
Same with my shotgun licence. I know FULL WELL that if I let it expire then I will get in very serious trouble with the Police. So I ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE that I renew in good time.
No excuse sorry.
el stovey said:
julian64 said:
Every time an F1 driver has a crash you don't say they're a crap driver. Equally if someone has flying qualifications comming out the ying yang but never pushes any envelope I wouldn't call them a brilliant flyer, and certainly wouldn't pay them much heed for post accident criticism, especially from a Judge whos idea of risky is whether he winds down the windows on his volvo. I would have to see a lot more details of the crash to call stupid on this one. I would call stupid for involving the children.
Bloke without valid licence flies low level down a valley and flies a fully functioning Helicopter into the ground with his and someone else's child (who he doesn't have permission from the parents to fly around) on board. What else could he do to be more stupid? Perhaps be drunk or be injecting heroin into his eye whilst he's doing it?
As for fully functioning helicopter. I've read enough crash investigation reports to know that the lack of finding a mechanical fault doesn't mean there wasn't one, or at least there wasn't a set of circumstances beyond his immediate control. They find what they can and they draw the dots. For the most part if you get found driving a fast car into a tree or a helicopter into the ground you better hope they find something or the dots will draw them to the conclusion you are an idiot. It may not always be so.
The world needs an answer to a tragedy. The state has given you the best answer it can. I'm just saying the system isn't perfect enough for me to vilify him because of the report.
Its interesting that soovy commented as his line of work confuses evidence with fact as a matter of necessity.
Jeezuz!!
People die, s
t happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.
I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
People die, s
t happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
Porkis said:
Not quite! I don't for one second think that he was aware that his licence had expired, I don't think he was that silly .. I suspect it was more of an oversight, which makes the big difference between knowingly doing this(and therefore not being insured) and not.
It's quite important though, having a valid licence and medical. I know it sounds a bit boring but it's the sort of thing you are expected to know and check. There was an oversight regarding his licence, a misjudgement over taking someone else's child up with him, another regarding flying low level down a valley where if there was a problem with the aircraft he would have little time to deal with it. That might be OK if you have a lot of low level training and flying experience but not if you don't and you have yours and others kids on board.
By all accounts he was a fantastic bloke and an amazing driver but tragically there were quite a few avoidable mistakes made leading up to this crash.
I'm not going to post anymore on this as I think he was a legend and one of my favourite sportsmen. That's how ill remember him.
A flying licence is a rather imporatnt thing. Most people, even people like McRae, would not have flown as frequently as they drive - so I would imagine he knew full well that he should not have been flying.
There are many people out there who think that regulations are for the masses and don't apply to them. Maybe he was one of those.
There are many people out there who think that regulations are for the masses and don't apply to them. Maybe he was one of those.
mondeoman said:
Jeezuz!!
People die, st happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.
I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
I don't agree. If he killed himself alone then I agree it's tragic, yes. If he was tw*tting around showing off with youngsters, compounded by no log book and valid licence, then that puts all his previous rally heroism into a new light.People die, s
t happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
I never knew the guy, but I used to love the fact he was an entertaining, but flawed driver, in that he couldn't seem to be able to keep the car on the road. This is why I say that I can see now he was "lucky" to have been so successful. There's only so far you can go driving on the edge of yoru personal ability, and his attitude to risk should not have been transferred to other areas in his life. Big shame to all concerned.
prand said:
mondeoman said:
Jeezuz!!
People die, st happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.
I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
I don't agree. If he killed himself alone then I agree it's tragic, yes. If he was tw*tting around showing off with youngsters, compounded by no log book and valid licence, then that puts all his previous rally heroism into a new light.People die, s
t happens, life goes on. Yes its a major loss for all concerned and it was most definitely his fault, I've no argument with that at all, but vilifying him in the way that some have is somewhat excessive IMO.I can well believe that he wasn't aware his licence had expired, especially if it had happened on two previous occasions. He was a risk taker, surely everyone knew that, and its very easy for the parents of the child involved to say now (well after the fact) that they didn't give express permission - was their lawyer there on the day to sign a disclaimer for them with Colin present as a witness before he flew? You can bet your bottom dollar that all on board would've been egging him on to "do some stunts" so that they could get their own thrill - can you really see him taking risks if someone else was saying "stop"?
All in all a sad event, Colins' fault, but ATEOTD its very much one of those things. IMO
I never knew the guy, but I used to love the fact he was an entertaining, but flawed driver, in that he couldn't seem to be able to keep the car on the road. This is why I say that I can see now he was "lucky" to have been so successful. There's only so far you can go driving on the edge of yoru personal ability, and his attitude to risk should not have been transferred to other areas in his life. Big shame to all concerned.
If he had gone of ON HIS OWN and killed HIMSELF then fine. But to take his own son, and another minor, and a breadwinner, and fly like that. Idiocy.
fluffnik said:
A jolly went tragically wrong, entirely independent of the paperwork.
Up to date paperwork would have done nothing to stop the accident.
All things considered I'd rather live in a world lacking paperwork than one short of jollies...
Does that also apply to uninsured illegal immigrants running over children?Up to date paperwork would have done nothing to stop the accident.
All things considered I'd rather live in a world lacking paperwork than one short of jollies...
Randy Winkman said:
fluffnik said:
A jolly went tragically wrong, entirely independent of the paperwork.
Up to date paperwork would have done nothing to stop the accident.
All things considered I'd rather live in a world lacking paperwork than one short of jollies...
Does that also apply to uninsured illegal immigrants running over children?Up to date paperwork would have done nothing to stop the accident.
All things considered I'd rather live in a world lacking paperwork than one short of jollies...
I have no licence, and no insurance, but I'll drive/fly anyway.
Arrogant idiocy.
Randy Winkman said:
fluffnik said:
All things considered I'd rather live in a world lacking paperwork than one short of jollies...
Does that also apply to uninsured illegal immigrants running over children?Colin's fightpath looked to be a well used showboating finale to a flight flown mainly for fun, or if you prefer, thrills. I'd call that a largely laudable objective, sad though the outcome was.
I don't know if air insurance is the same but licencing irregularities would not compromise the third party cover of RTA compliant insurance and I've not heard any suggestion that he'd failed to pay insurance.
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