Bahrain Protests
Discussion
allnighter said:
Munter said:
=GRAPHIC VIDEO. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIPLLERpKI
If you pay mercenaries to do your security. This is the sort of thing that happens.
Already posted on page 2.It was the military who did that.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZIPLLERpKI
If you pay mercenaries to do your security. This is the sort of thing that happens.
In Egypt the military were the people. And so took a police type role. In Bahrain they are not the people, and are motivated by something other than loyalty to the people. Not a good starting point.
MX7 said:
I wouldn't say any of them are really democratic, although they are certainly better than some others.
Some of these countries are relatively young though - democracy is an evolving process. It's taken us years to get to where we are today and we've still not perfected it.Or is that just an excuse, I don't know?
Victor McDade said:
MX7 said:
I wouldn't say any of them are really democratic, although they are certainly better than some others.
Some of these countries are relatively young though - democracy is an evolving process. It's taken us years to get to where we are today and we've still not perfected it.Or is that just an excuse, I don't know?
KANEIT said:
Jimbeaux said:
allnighter said:
KANEIT said:
Rodimus said:
....Its because of the stampede that resulted in the death of a 52 year old whose pic you have seen with his skull cracked open....
And you expect us to swallow that? Skull blown away more like, and from quotes taken by international reporters from medical staff, more likely the result of an explosive discharge. Stampedes do not cause that level of damage. 
Victor McDade said:
Rodimus, you make some interesting points and it's good to get an insight from the pro ruling families point of view but, don't you think having an unelected,appointed and highly divisive (from the Shiites pov) PM (who just happens to be the Kings Uncle and Bahrain's richest man) sitting in power for over 40 years is a tad unreasonable?
No one would expect you to support a full blown democratic revolution (turkeys voting for Xmas and all that) but if the King was serious about his 'democratic reforms' as promised in 2002 then let your people choose their Prime Minister. If Prince Khalifa is as popular as you say then he'll be returned to power anyway.
What is an ideal situation in your opinion, how would you like to see yourself and your people governed?
This is a good question and a tricky one for me to answer. My father used to work for the government. He was so close to being frammed and the people trying to frame him were people directly under the PM. Until this day, one side of the PM's grand kids look at me, my brother, my family as nothing but trash. Their attitude was basically ''how dare they defy us''. I do apologize but i wont be able to get into detail about this one but basically the emir at the time saw what happened and offered my dad a better position. He turned down the offer and resigned from the government and we have been happy every since. So if i was going to take this personal, yes i would say get rid of him but if you were to ask me whats best for my country then no. No one would expect you to support a full blown democratic revolution (turkeys voting for Xmas and all that) but if the King was serious about his 'democratic reforms' as promised in 2002 then let your people choose their Prime Minister. If Prince Khalifa is as popular as you say then he'll be returned to power anyway.
What is an ideal situation in your opinion, how would you like to see yourself and your people governed?
The opposition group control 18 out of 40 seats in parliament. They have currently left their jobs and its not like they can easily be replaced. It need to go through a voting process. If another of these incidents happen again and one of their guys get to be PM and he leaves his seat whenever he isnt happy, he doesnt stop parliament, he shuts down the government. That is too much power to give away. It is highly unlikely to get one of their own as a PM. The people you see in pearl roundabout are about 15k people. During the past few days, they asked for the PM to step down or else they wont leave. Last night 300,000 pro-government rally took place as people marched the capital. They asked for the opposition group to join hands and unite the country together. Funny thing is BBC, SKY, FOX, none have mentioned these events yet. Like i have mentioned countless times, they show one side of the story.
http://theglobalherald.com/bahrain-thousands-atten...
I am trying to look for a vid showing exactly how many people went pro-government last night but currently having trouble looking for a good one. Here is what i found online
http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/2426371...
the first 20 seconds show the 300k march while the rest show the 15k in pearl roundabout.
The opposition group is no more. They decided to ditch their leaders and go head on, on their own. I have mentioned this yesterday that the opposition groups are struggling to maintain power. We wont achieve any goals with the opposition leaders struggling to maintain power within their group.
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?st...
While their leaderships within the groups were slowly fading away, the main opposition group thought it would be a smart idea to ask all government school teachers to quit their jobs. This angered people from all sorts of religion groups resulting in a 300k march asking for them to stop ruining the country and quickly get it over with (not in those exact words though).
Munter said:
The military who are as I understand it from the news, mostly foreign and only there for the benefits. So basically mercenaries.
In Egypt the military were the people. And so took a police type role. In Bahrain they are not the people, and are motivated by something other than loyalty to the people. Not a good starting point.
That's not true. You see people in the metro police in london of indian background, arab, but carry british passports. Same thing in the millitary. In bahrain the police have been killed by protesters in the past. They will be extremely cautious when dealing with them obviously. In Egypt the military were the people. And so took a police type role. In Bahrain they are not the people, and are motivated by something other than loyalty to the people. Not a good starting point.
KANEIT said:
Jimbeaux said:
So, you are certain Bahrain officials are on par with those two?
You believe all you like of what Rodimus posts. just going to put these two links in here real quick
http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Politics/...
http://www.saudinewstoday.com/article/48745__Bahra...
Minister of Interior went on national televison apologizing for the deaths of the first two killed. King apologized too. Apologies dont bring back the dead but they have detained the people responsible for it and will work their way from there.
Edited by Rodimus on Tuesday 22 February 04:09
Rodimus said:
Munter said:
The military who are as I understand it from the news, mostly foreign and only there for the benefits. So basically mercenaries.
In Egypt the military were the people. And so took a police type role. In Bahrain they are not the people, and are motivated by something other than loyalty to the people. Not a good starting point.
That's not true. You see people in the metro police in london of indian background, arab, but carry british passports. Same thing in the millitary. In bahrain the police have been killed by protesters in the past. They will be extremely cautious when dealing with them obviously. In Egypt the military were the people. And so took a police type role. In Bahrain they are not the people, and are motivated by something other than loyalty to the people. Not a good starting point.
You also seem to have a voided the most key question. If the protesters are a minority. Why not hold a full and fair election ASAP and then turn around and go "You had your chance, you didn't win power, now get on with life until the next election which is in 4 or 5 years", with the full backing of the international community?
KANEIT said:
You believe all you like of what Rodimus posts.
But, it seems, many are quite happy to believe the material the anti-government side put out. At least Rodimus is clear where his partiality lies. That doesn't make what he says true of course.We should stay out of the conflict. The government is internationally recognised. They are the legitimate rulers of the country. You might not like the way they run it but, it would appear, many do. We put democracy forward as if it is the answer to everything. Let's have democracy and everyone will be happy and fulfilled. It doesn't happen that way.
Looked at logically, despite the organisers' intent being, by its own admission, to overthrow the government the casualty figure is low. Remarkably so. Their response might not be what we want but compared to the way Libya has behaved it is measured.
Ask yourself what would happen in this country if the police were overwhelmed and the army was deployed on the streets and tried to move on a similarly large group of people whose intent was to overthrow the government.
And that video of the shooting of the demonstrators is very suspect. In real life incidents of shootings we've seen in other countries people behave very differently. I'm not convinced. But, of course, all those who believe in conspiracies are fantasists.
How To Overthrow A Government
Posted By Ty - dreamsend.blogspot.com
Having studied the techniques of the CIA and related organizations, I am pleased to announce the following simple steps in overthrowing a democratically elected government.
1. Find some opposition...ANY opposition in the country. Your best bet is some rich members of a former oligarchy or former military. Begin giving them funds, and, start training some of them in case you need to move in the direction of military action. I understand there is a nice training facility in the Florida Everglades that is available as all the Haitian death-squadders who trained there are now busy destroying Haiti.
2. Come up with some reasons that the current government must go. The reasons could be true or not, that is irrelevant. A popular one to use would be economic issues, which goes well with number 4, below.
3. Buy and/or infiltrate significant media outlets. Use these outlets to whip up a broader backlash against the leaders.
4. Meanwhile, use overt and covert means to destabilize the economy. In Haiti, Bush simply held back 500 million dollars in aid already earmarked for that country. There are other ways to destabilize currency, including working with rich elites within the country who will be happy to help. A last resort would be an actual embargo of the country, though that's a tad obvious. Still, most Americans won't notice. We had economic sanctions on Iraq for over 12 years and yet when the second Gulf Massacre ended, news media were still talking about how Saddam had ruined the economy.
5. Infiltrate some unions. You'll need some protesters in the streets. You can pay protesters to come. That's fine.
6. Stage some opposition rallies. If possible, shoot some of the protesters and blame this on the government. This worked well in the first Chavez coup attempt. Obviously, do not tell the protesters of your intentions.
7. Ramp up the anti-government rhetoric from the media outlets you control. Be completely outrageous. Call for demonstrations. Slander government officials. Do whatever it takes. The goal is now not just to spread negative information about the government but to force a response, such as having one of your outlets shut down. Then, violation of free speech gets added to the list of grievances. You can then have some "moderates" come along and say, "Well, I wasn't really that sympathetic to the opposition, but when the government began shutting down opposition media, I realized (insert name of leader here) had to go." If you need to, pay some moderates to say this. Or some actors. This is primarily for U.S. consumption anyway.
8. Go to the CIA rolodex, and find out who the Agency controls in domestic media and get them to begin reporting on the opposition movement in ways that make it look legitimate. Be sure these media outlets blame all violence on the current government. The New York Times, FOX and CNN are good places to start. A good example of this in action is the case of Haiti. Despite the fact that the "opposition" are made of U.S. trained former Haitian military and death squads with horrible human rights records, they are called "rebels." Aristide supporters are called "armed thugs." This never fails. Don't worry that some other media will find out the truth and report it. Just make sure your headlines are bigger and get out first. Plant some stories called "The Truth about (insert name of leader here)" and make a lot of s
t up. My favorite example was the "voodoo room" they found after they overthrew Noriega. It had "black magic paraphernalia AND drugs". 9. Don't actually kidnap the leader. He should be killed, as was Allende in Chile. Otherwise, they will talk. You see how much trouble Aristide was causing before they found the cell phone someone had slipped him. If it is a Caribbean or African state you are overthrowing, you might want to make sure Reps. Maxine Waters and Charles Rangel are out of the country while it's all going on.
10. Keep your own military involvement to a minimum. Some special forces in local dress is fine, but make sure there is alot of chaos before sending forces in overtly. Usually, the best approach is to wait until the leader is deposed and then send in "peacekeeping forces." Make sure you wait until the leader is actually deposed, though. It would be awfully embarrassing to be keeping the peace for the leader you are trying to get rid of.
11. Be sure to, at least at first, condemn the coup attempts, as Powell demonstrated in the opening weeks of the Haiti operation. You can switch sides later and no one will question you.
12. It can get messy, but know that, once it's accomplished, any talk that it was a U.S. orchestrated coup becomes a "conspiracy theory" and will be relegated to irrelevant blogs and leftist or conspiracy websites. alt.conspiracy cannot hurt you.
Well, that's it. Simple. If you want to study how it works, read about Haiti and keep watching in Venezuela. Chavez is tough, but just about anything he can do from now on will simply "prove" how anti-democratic he is and how he "really brought the coup on himself".
Derek Smith said:
11. Be sure to, at least at first, condemn the coup attempts, as Powell demonstrated in the opening weeks of the Haiti operation. You can switch sides later and no one will question you.
And Hillary Clinton in Egypt. Has she started calling for "orderly transitions" anywhere else yet?God knows who will back who when all the dust settles.
Rodimus, you keep saying that the BBC et al are ignoring the pro govt protestors
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-middle-east...
http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=58...
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/21/tens-of-thousand...
These are just three articles. Do you have selective blindness?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-middle-east...
http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=58...
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/21/tens-of-thousand...
These are just three articles. Do you have selective blindness?
Eric Mc said:
I haven't read your post because of its length but what are your criteria for "legitimate" regimes?
And at what point should the population decide that a regime no longer has legitimacy?
Lawful. The state is internationally recognised, has treaties. The fact that it is not our idea of a democracy despite having elections is of no account. We should not impose our beliefs on others over and above criticisms of accepted human rights violations.And at what point should the population decide that a regime no longer has legitimacy?
I don't see any limit as such. It is almost impossible to define.
There was PIRA in Northern Ireland. Should their street demonstrations and such be sufficient to render the province illegitimate? Should the fact that they behaved illegally be something that should stop them being considered as suitable for government?
If you read the post above, at least that bit of it which was not cut and paste, you will see my point of view on the matter. I won't repeat it here.
You can't knock Rodimus, he's happily living in a country where his family are in the first team . Why on earth would he want any change? I certainly wouldn't. It's certainly in the west's interest to keep things as they are.
Perhaps some of these oil rich ME states with ethnic and religious 'issues' need autocrats to keep the stability. It might not be your country's way but as long as they can keep the masses happy then it will continue to work for them.
Bahrain doesn't have democracy but I doubt they have half the social problems we have in the UK. Plenty of expats live there. Everyone knows the rules just don't break them and life is just dandy. I doubt some of these relatively new nations are even ready for a transition to democracy.
Perhaps some of these oil rich ME states with ethnic and religious 'issues' need autocrats to keep the stability. It might not be your country's way but as long as they can keep the masses happy then it will continue to work for them.
Bahrain doesn't have democracy but I doubt they have half the social problems we have in the UK. Plenty of expats live there. Everyone knows the rules just don't break them and life is just dandy. I doubt some of these relatively new nations are even ready for a transition to democracy.
Derek Smith said:
KANEIT said:
You believe all you like of what Rodimus posts.
But, it seems, many are quite happy to believe the material the anti-government side put out. At least Rodimus is clear where his partiality lies. That doesn't make what he says true of course.We should stay out of the conflict. The government is internationally recognised. They are the legitimate rulers of the country. You might not like the way they run it but, it would appear, many do. We put democracy forward as if it is the answer to everything. Let's have democracy and everyone will be happy and fulfilled. It doesn't happen that way.
Looked at logically, despite the organisers' intent being, by its own admission, to overthrow the government the casualty figure is low. Remarkably so. Their response might not be what we want but compared to the way Libya has behaved it is measured.
Ask yourself what would happen in this country if the police were overwhelmed and the army was deployed on the streets and tried to move on a similarly large group of people whose intent was to overthrow the government.
And that video of the shooting of the demonstrators is very suspect. In real life incidents of shootings we've seen in other countries people behave very differently. I'm not convinced. But, of course, all those who believe in conspiracies are fantasists.
How To Overthrow A Government
Posted By Ty - dreamsend.blogspot.com
Having studied the techniques of the CIA and related organizations, I am pleased to announce the following simple steps in overthrowing a democratically elected government.
1. Find some opposition...ANY opposition in the country. Your best bet is some rich members of a former oligarchy or former military. Begin giving them funds, and, start training some of them in case you need to move in the direction of military action. I understand there is a nice training facility in the Florida Everglades that is available as all the Haitian death-squadders who trained there are now busy destroying Haiti.
2. Come up with some reasons that the current government must go. The reasons could be true or not, that is irrelevant. A popular one to use would be economic issues, which goes well with number 4, below.
3. Buy and/or infiltrate significant media outlets. Use these outlets to whip up a broader backlash against the leaders.
4. Meanwhile, use overt and covert means to destabilize the economy. In Haiti, Bush simply held back 500 million dollars in aid already earmarked for that country. There are other ways to destabilize currency, including working with rich elites within the country who will be happy to help. A last resort would be an actual embargo of the country, though that's a tad obvious. Still, most Americans won't notice. We had economic sanctions on Iraq for over 12 years and yet when the second Gulf Massacre ended, news media were still talking about how Saddam had ruined the economy.
5. Infiltrate some unions. You'll need some protesters in the streets. You can pay protesters to come. That's fine.
6. Stage some opposition rallies. If possible, shoot some of the protesters and blame this on the government. This worked well in the first Chavez coup attempt. Obviously, do not tell the protesters of your intentions.
7. Ramp up the anti-government rhetoric from the media outlets you control. Be completely outrageous. Call for demonstrations. Slander government officials. Do whatever it takes. The goal is now not just to spread negative information about the government but to force a response, such as having one of your outlets shut down. Then, violation of free speech gets added to the list of grievances. You can then have some "moderates" come along and say, "Well, I wasn't really that sympathetic to the opposition, but when the government began shutting down opposition media, I realized (insert name of leader here) had to go." If you need to, pay some moderates to say this. Or some actors. This is primarily for U.S. consumption anyway.
8. Go to the CIA rolodex, and find out who the Agency controls in domestic media and get them to begin reporting on the opposition movement in ways that make it look legitimate. Be sure these media outlets blame all violence on the current government. The New York Times, FOX and CNN are good places to start. A good example of this in action is the case of Haiti. Despite the fact that the "opposition" are made of U.S. trained former Haitian military and death squads with horrible human rights records, they are called "rebels." Aristide supporters are called "armed thugs." This never fails. Don't worry that some other media will find out the truth and report it. Just make sure your headlines are bigger and get out first. Plant some stories called "The Truth about (insert name of leader here)" and make a lot of s
t up. My favorite example was the "voodoo room" they found after they overthrew Noriega. It had "black magic paraphernalia AND drugs". 9. Don't actually kidnap the leader. He should be killed, as was Allende in Chile. Otherwise, they will talk. You see how much trouble Aristide was causing before they found the cell phone someone had slipped him. If it is a Caribbean or African state you are overthrowing, you might want to make sure Reps. Maxine Waters and Charles Rangel are out of the country while it's all going on.
10. Keep your own military involvement to a minimum. Some special forces in local dress is fine, but make sure there is alot of chaos before sending forces in overtly. Usually, the best approach is to wait until the leader is deposed and then send in "peacekeeping forces." Make sure you wait until the leader is actually deposed, though. It would be awfully embarrassing to be keeping the peace for the leader you are trying to get rid of.
11. Be sure to, at least at first, condemn the coup attempts, as Powell demonstrated in the opening weeks of the Haiti operation. You can switch sides later and no one will question you.
12. It can get messy, but know that, once it's accomplished, any talk that it was a U.S. orchestrated coup becomes a "conspiracy theory" and will be relegated to irrelevant blogs and leftist or conspiracy websites. alt.conspiracy cannot hurt you.
Well, that's it. Simple. If you want to study how it works, read about Haiti and keep watching in Venezuela. Chavez is tough, but just about anything he can do from now on will simply "prove" how anti-democratic he is and how he "really brought the coup on himself".
Edited by Jimbeaux on Tuesday 22 February 12:17
el stovey said:
You can't knock Rodimus, he's happily living in a country where his family are in the first team . Why on earth would he want any change? I certainly wouldn't. It's certainly in the west's interest to keep things as they are.
Perhaps some of these oil rich ME states with ethnic and religious 'issues' need autocrats to keep the stability. It might not be your country's way but as long as they can keep the masses happy then it will continue to work for them.
Bahrain doesn't have democracy but I doubt they have half the social problems we have in the UK. Plenty of expats live there. Everyone knows the rules just don't break them and life is just dandy. I doubt some of these relatively new nations are even ready for a transition to democracy.
You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy. BTW, I believe Rodimus is living in the U.K. Perhaps some of these oil rich ME states with ethnic and religious 'issues' need autocrats to keep the stability. It might not be your country's way but as long as they can keep the masses happy then it will continue to work for them.
Bahrain doesn't have democracy but I doubt they have half the social problems we have in the UK. Plenty of expats live there. Everyone knows the rules just don't break them and life is just dandy. I doubt some of these relatively new nations are even ready for a transition to democracy.
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