Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

XJ Flyer said:

Octoposse said:

Fishtigua said:

I hope Putin has cooked his own goose good and proper this time.

Well, I see the EU and US leaders who thought it was a good idea to destabalise Ukraine and support regime change still strutting around with no sense of responsibility. Ditto Ukraine's current leaders, emboldened by outside support to go for a military solution rather than the political one that Russia has been pressing for.

^ This.

Still waiting for you to answer my question

You've got an answer to your question.'If' Russia decides to invade Eastern Ukraine it would be justified in doing so 'by the standards of the British actions in Ireland'.Which then just leaves the question of either taking Devalera's and the provisional/continuity IRA view of that situation.

Or Collins' and the UK/Irish governments' anti Devalera/provisional IRA position in favour of the settlement reached of partition.Which is obviously what's needed in the case of Ukraine.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 19th July 13:35

[XJ Flyer]

Dr Jekyll said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

If the Russians were to follow the American lead when shooting down unarmed civilian planes, they would need to decorate the commander of the unit, not charge any of the missile system operators, not apologies to any of the affected countries or admit liability either, paying out a relatively small compensation to the victims families.

It seems the Russians and separatists are merely following the example set by the USA. The world has been here before, and democracies can be hard to distinguish from dictatorships or visa versa.

If the Malaysians had already used military aircraft to attack the Russians, then it might be an analogous situation.

In this case the loyalist paramilitary forces would have seen it as a case of defending their population against Ukrainian nationalist air attack just as America saw it as defending their ship against possible air attack by Iran.The fact it just happened to be an Iranian airliner that got shot down in the case of the Vincennes is irrelevant.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Dr Jekyll said:

If the Malaysians had already used military aircraft to attack the Russians, then it might be an analogous situation.

The Ukrainian government have used military aircraft to bomb the separatists, the Malaysian aircraft looks like it was misidentified, much like the Iranian Air plane. The situation seems very similar to me. Let us see if the Russians and Separatists use the same PR strategy as the USA, worked well for them.

[Pistom]

EskimoArapaho said:

Pistom said:

If this aircraft was shot down by accident which based on the limited information presented to me appears to be the case, it is just an unfortunate incident.

The plane was not shot down by accident. It was misidentified by trigger-happy scumbags and shot down deliberately.

Putting it into some "just an unfortunate incident" category is not the best way to proceed.

For starters, there will be war zones in the future, and at the very least it would be useful if future 'freedom fighters' with deadly weaponry thought twice before pressing the trigger just because there's a distant contrail in their sights.

Yes, you have described the situation more accurately than I have. A slip of the trigger is an accident, aiming the gun and squeezing the trigger is not but I've yet to come to terms with the idea that shooting down an innocent passenger plain was the intention.

I believe lessons should be learned but it does look like it is just an unfortunate incident.

[Simpo Two]

Well the bandits are busy removing/destroying evidence, as you might expect from someone keen to cover their tracks. So we can't expect a Western-style investigation and guilt will be by omission.

[Colonial]

Simpo Two said:

Well the bandits are busy removing/destroying evidence, as you might expect from someone keen to cover their tracks. So we can't expect a Western-style investigation and guilt will be by omission.

That's just a western media conspiracy.

Our bare chested horse riding saviour will see things right whilst fulfilling our latent homo erotic desires.

Sorry. Just lapsed into the pro Putin mindset for a second.

[anonymous-user]

This is just turning into an absolute nightmare.



https://twitter.com/maxseddon

[TheEnd]

Guam said:

I think we have yet to see how the shockwaves from this will percolate outwards, will it cause ww3 (as some have suggested) no I dont think so.

I can't see this starting a war.

From what I can tell, there have been 4 other civilian planes shot down like this, 2 by Russians, 1 by Ukraine, and 1 by the US, which happens to be the 3 loudest mouths on this accident too.

[fido]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

paying out a relatively small compensation to the victims families.

Compensation (however minor it may be) is at least a form of acknowledgment - something I am certain we will not see from Russia or whoever is in charge. The only good aspect of this incident is that it is quite international. Perhaps a global ban on a few of its popular exports (gas not included)?

Edited by fido on Saturday 19th July 13:58

[Eric Mc]

TheEnd said:

Guam said:

I think we have yet to see how the shockwaves from this will percolate outwards, will it cause ww3 (as some have suggested) no I dont think so.

I can't see this starting a war.

From what I can tell, there have been 4 other civilian planes shot down like this, 2 by Russians, 1 by Ukraine, and 1 by the US, which happens to be the 3 loudest mouths on this accident too.

There have been more than that. I posted a list earlier in the thread. The Israelis shot down a 727 in the 1970s.

[TheEnd]

Eric Mc said:

There have been more than that. I posted a list earlier in the thread. The Israelis shot down a 727 in the 1970s.

ah, OK.
I knew the Russians, Ukrainians and US had shot them down before, and looking for details I found an article saying-
"From the 1960s to just a few years ago, there have been four other known incidents of large jet airliners shot down. In two cases it was for violating Soviet airspace after veering off course; in another, because the plane had been mistaken for a military jet; and in the most recent case, because of an errant missile launched during a military exercise."

[Eric Mc]

In 1980, an Itavia DC-9 crashed into the Med. It was thought for a long time that it may have been downed by an errant missile fired during a NATO exercise. It's never really been proved one way or the other.

In 1968 an Aer Lingus Vickers Viscount crashed into the Irish Sea just off the coast of Wexford. Some people (read, WANT to believe) that it was knocked out of the sky by a missile or a drone operating out of Llanbedr or Aberporth. No evidence has ever been produced to show this for sure and it is more likely that the aircraft crashed because of a failure of the tailplane, which may have been precipitated by a failure of the rear pressure bulkhead.

[Dr Jekyll]

Eric Mc said:

In 1980, an Itavia DC-9 crashed into the Med. It was thought for a long time that it may have been downed by an errant missile fired during a NATO exercise. It's never really been proved one way or the other.

There is also the conspiracy theory involving a Libyan(?) MIG found crashed in Italy a couple of weeks later, and suggestions of defectors and dogfights.

[El Guapo]

0a said:

Now that the st has hit the fan will the EU be there to take responsibility and clear it up - nope.

There will be some meetings before the participants are taken away in fleets of chauffeur-driven limos for a slap-up dinner at our expense. On the plus side, the citizens of the EU didn't elect most of them.

[hornetrider]

I'm absolutely disgusted at the situation on the ground. Can't understand why the security council hasn't got together and thrashed out a plan of action.

[anonymous-user]

http://news.sky.com/story/1303884/weapon-moved-to-...

The BUK launcher, with one missile missing, on the back of a truck being driven over the border to Russia allegedly.

[skyrover]

XJ Flyer said:

You've got an answer to your question.'If' Russia decides to invade Eastern Ukraine it would be justified in doing so 'by the standards of the British actions in Ireland'.Which then just leaves the question of either taking Devalera's and the provisional/continuity IRA view of that situation.

Or Collins' and the UK/Irish governments' anti Devalera/provisional IRA position in favour of the settlement reached of partition.Which is obviously what's needed in the case of Ukraine.

So Russia is justified invading Ukraine because you can find an example in British history when you fell we have done something similar?

Good grief

[cwis]

I'd imagine if the UK government started kicking out oligarchs and repossessing their properties in central London, Putin would wake up dead shortly afterwards...

Mojocvh said:

So two and a half days on and the bodies are still lying in the fields rotting.

It would seem that the Soviets Russians and their cohorts can do what they want with impunity.

Sanctions?

[Vipers]

So yesterday's papers said carriers had been advised not to fly over what what was deemed a war zone, today, it says it was a recognised route.........

Some idiot is claiming the passengers were dead before the plane took off, and the local rag printed it, give me strength.

[Colonial]

skyrover said:

So Russia is justified invading Ukraine because you can find an example in British history when you fell we have done something similar?

Good grief

That seems to be the standard approach of the Putin fanboys.