46th President of the United States, Joe Biden

[T6 vanman]

paulguitar said:

Roderick Spode said:

I see. The problem isn't Biden's popularity rating, it's the electorate and the polling system. Gotcha.

What did I say about the polling system? You appear to be inventing things in your own mind.

The fact that a significant part of the electorate is morally corrupt or plain stupid enough to believe the election lies is very significant (T6 edit .. Quantify significant, 0.1%, 1% 10% ???). How can any leader unite a country where many are living in fantasy land?

In fairness to Mr Guitar .... The US is massively divided,

Unfortunately the assessment that the divisions are unhealable does not stand water.

However,
How can the leader unite a country where so many of his policies and actions have manufactured so many wedges (even Bird'sEye & McCains couldn't manufacturer as many) to the determent to the US, socially, financially, morally & politically.

That's the question that is a millstone around Biden

Edited by T6 vanman on Monday 23 May 16:18

[paulguitar]

T6 vanman said:

In fairness to Mr Guitar .... The US is massively divided,

Unfortunately the assessment that the divisions are unhealable does not stand water.

However,
How can the leader unite a country where so many of his policies and actions have manufactured so many wedges (even Bird'sEye & McCains couldn't manufacturer as many) to the determent to the US, socially, financially, morally & politically.

That's the question that is a millstone around Biden

We don't agree about the endless division you think Biden has manufactured in fact, I think about many things you are simply wrong or misinformed. I think you'd accept that you have been massively anti-Biden from the start if what you've posted is anything to go by. It's been relentlessly one-sided.


My point is that nobody will be able to unite a country where a significant percentage of the electorate is gullible or morally compromised enough to believe in the transparent lies about the 2020 election. You could have the most sincere, intelligent, inspiring leader imaginable and they will still hate him/her.



ETA.

In answer to your question, almost unbelievably, 53% of Republicans believe the Big Lie.

53%!

Edited by paulguitar on Monday 23 May 16:29

[Roderick Spode]

paulguitar said:

Roderick Spode said:

I see. The problem isn't Biden's popularity rating, it's the electorate and the polling system. Gotcha.

What did I say about the polling system? You appear to be inventing things in your own mind.


The fact that a significant part of the electorate is morally corrupt or plain stupid enough to believe the election lies is very significant. How can any leader unite a country where many are living in fantasy land?

paulguitar said:

There are a significant amount of people in the USA who either sincerely believe the election was stolen, or who are so compromised morally and mentally that they choose to live in a world where that lie becomes their own reality.

These individuals are polled on a similar schedule to those you might consider "normal" functioning members of American society, so short of excluding them from all future polling, how might you go about establishing The Sainted Joe's approval rating? Should we exclude all those who openly revile him? Exclude all Republicans? Exclude everyone in a MAGA baseball cap?

The polling is intended to reflect how society as a whole views the incumbent president. If a large segment of society openly despises him, why should that be excluded from the figures? What makes the opinion of a Kentucky gun toting pickup driving redneck hillbilly less credible than a high society Connecticut educated blue collar? Surely that's the equality American society is built upon...

[Al Gorithum]

paulguitar said:

You could have the most sincere, intelligent, inspiring leader imaginable and they will still hate him/her.

Edited by paulguitar on Monday 23 May 16:29

Barak Obama for example...

[HM-2]

T6 vanman said:

How can the leader unite a country where so many of his policies and actions have manufactured so many wedges...to the determent to the US, socially, financially, morally & politically.

I would argue that a significant majority of the division has been "manufactured"- and that's definitely the correct word- not by the Biden administration but by reactionaries and the regressive right. Things that are entirely uncontroversial in other administrations have been turned into massive political issues to rally the screaming uneducated. We've reached a point where the Republican party in its current form cannot feasibly sustain an electoral majority, yet rather than change their perspective and accommodate the views of others they actively seek to perpetuate falsehoods and engage in moral crusades to try and deflect from this fact.

[Roderick Spode]

HM-2 said:

T6 vanman said:

How can the leader unite a country where so many of his policies and actions have manufactured so many wedges...to the determent to the US, socially, financially, morally & politically.

I would argue that a significant majority of the division has been "manufactured"- and that's definitely the correct word- not by the Biden administration but by reactionaries and the regressive right. Things that are entirely uncontroversial in other administrations have been turned into massive political issues to rally the screaming uneducated. We've reached a point where the Republican party in its current form cannot feasibly sustain an electoral majority, yet rather than change their perspective and accommodate the views of others they actively seek to perpetuate falsehoods and engage in moral crusades to try and deflect from this fact.

Good of you to be the moral arbiter, and determine large segments of American society as 'uneducated'. Same as Paul with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

[HM-2]

Roderick Spode said:

Good of you to be the moral arbiter, and determine large segments of American society as 'uneducated'. Same as Paul with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Anyone who legitimately believes the "stolen election" conspiracy theories are, by definition, "uneducated".

[Roderick Spode]

HM-2 said:

Roderick Spode said:

Good of you to be the moral arbiter, and determine large segments of American society as 'uneducated'. Same as Paul with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Anyone who legitimately believes the "stolen election" conspiracy theories are, by definition, "uneducated".

For every American citizen of 'average' intelligence, there must inevitably be 49.9% of society beneath them, and 49.9% of society above them in the intelligence stakes. You have no right to deprive any of these people of their democratic compunction, however much you may disagree with it.

[tangerine_sedge]

Roderick Spode said:

HM-2 said:

Roderick Spode said:

Good of you to be the moral arbiter, and determine large segments of American society as 'uneducated'. Same as Paul with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Anyone who legitimately believes the "stolen election" conspiracy theories are, by definition, "uneducated".

For every American citizen of 'average' intelligence, there must inevitably be 49.9% of society beneath them, and 49.9% of society above them in the intelligence stakes. You have no right to deprive any of these people of their democratic compunction, however much you may disagree with it.

It's not about intelligence it's about education and access to truthful information. When you have news stations/politicians/commentators in the US actively promoting easily disproved lies as facts, day after day, then there's no surprise that there is huge division. Sadly, this seems to be the GOPS modus operandi and has enabled and empowered Republican to push the boundaries of what is expected and acceptable from politicians.

[Cobracc]

paulguitar said:

T6 vanman said:

Biden's approval ratings still on the slide .. another loss of .3% within a fortnight,
What are the reasons common Americans can not see they've never had it so good?

Have a read of the article above, that's quite interesting.

There are a significant amount of people in the USA who either sincerely believe the election was stolen, or who are so compromised morally and mentally that they choose to live in a world where that lie becomes their own reality.


It's actually difficult to imagine any leader uniting them or doing particularly well in polls with things the way they are. They are in a post-truth, utterly divided political landscape. The country is pretty much broken now.

Hasn't that always been the case..?

From the revolutionary war, civil war, slavery, civil rights movement, Vietnam war, globalisation, Trump, left/right, gun laws, wealth inequality, Republican / Democrat etc....America has always been a deeply divided society.

[kowalski655]

T6 vanman said:

In fairness to Mr Guitar .... The US is massively divided,

Unfortunately the assessment that the divisions are unhealable does not stand water.

However,
How can the leader unite a country where so many of his policies and actions have manufactured so many wedges (even Bird'sEye & McCains couldn't manufacturer as many) to the determent to the US, socially, financially, morally & politically.

That's the question that is a millstone around Biden

Edited by T6 vanman on Monday 23 May 16:18

Many of his policies ARE popular with the man on the Claphamville Greyhound bus, e.g. 70% for a single payer health system,
https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/...
continued family support through Covid etc, but the GOP refuses repeatedly to act in their voters interests. Look at their stance on baby formula...vote against getting more but blame Biden for their failure to act

[HM-2]

Roderick Spode said:

HM-2 said:

Roderick Spode said:

Good of you to be the moral arbiter, and determine large segments of American society as 'uneducated'. Same as Paul with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Anyone who legitimately believes the "stolen election" conspiracy theories are, by definition, "uneducated".

For every American citizen of 'average' intelligence, there must inevitably be 49.9% of society beneath them, and 49.9% of society above them in the intelligence stakes. You have no right to deprive any of these people of their democratic compunction, however much you may disagree with it.

I never proposed depriving anyone their "democratic compunction", as you entirely inaccurately put it.

[Electro1980]

Roderick Spode said:

with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Which part of that is not factual? I assume it refers to 45?

[paulguitar]

Electro1980 said:

Roderick Spode said:

with his "Disgraced Former President" schtick.

Which part of that is not factual? I assume it refers to 45?

Yes, 45.

Are you seriously trying to suggest 45 isn't disgraced, Rodders?

[paulguitar]

Roderick Spode said:

paulguitar said:

Roderick Spode said:

I see. The problem isn't Biden's popularity rating, it's the electorate and the polling system. Gotcha.

What did I say about the polling system? You appear to be inventing things in your own mind.


The fact that a significant part of the electorate is morally corrupt or plain stupid enough to believe the election lies is very significant. How can any leader unite a country where many are living in fantasy land?

paulguitar said:

There are a significant amount of people in the USA who either sincerely believe the election was stolen, or who are so compromised morally and mentally that they choose to live in a world where that lie becomes their own reality.

These individuals are polled on a similar schedule to those you might consider "normal" functioning members of American society, so short of excluding them from all future polling, how might you go about establishing The Sainted Joe's approval rating? Should we exclude all those who openly revile him? Exclude all Republicans? Exclude everyone in a MAGA baseball cap?

The polling is intended to reflect how society as a whole views the incumbent president. If a large segment of society openly despises him, why should that be excluded from the figures? What makes the opinion of a Kentucky gun toting pickup driving redneck hillbilly less credible than a high society Connecticut educated blue collar? Surely that's the equality American society is built upon...

My point, which clearly I have totally failed to make in an understandable way, (at least to you) was that no leader will poll very well when so many of the people with votes believe, completely wrongly, that the person they are giving their opinion about was not elected legitimately.

[HD Adam]

AW111 said:

Will they ever accept that the election was not rigged, and Trump just plain lost?
If not, the US is still neck deep in st.

No. It's totally divided.

It's either Biden good, Trump bad or Biden bad, Trump good.

Much like Brexit here.

It was either a well deserved victory by majority vote & we're heading for sunlit uplands or not because my cat & 6 year old didn't get a vote, the referendum was only advisory, we should have had a referendum confirming the referendum etc. Take your pick.

[jimmyjimjim]

paulguitar said:

Yes, 45.

Are you seriously trying to suggest 45 isn't disgraced, Rodders?

He's a disgrace, for sure.

[AW111]

HD Adam said:

AW111 said:

Will they ever accept that the election was not rigged, and Trump just plain lost?
If not, the US is still neck deep in st.

No. It's totally divided.

It's either Biden good, Trump bad or Biden bad, Trump good.

Much like Brexit here.

It was either a well deserved victory by majority vote & we're heading for sunlit uplands or not because my cat & 6 year old didn't get a vote, the referendum was only advisory, we should have had a referendum confirming the referendum etc. Take your pick.

But it's not "take your pick".

This isn't a "my side good, your side bad" argument, but one where one side (the Republicans) are claiming that they won the election, but were cheated out of government by massive electoral fraud.

There are no facts to support this, but due to the relentless propagand from the GOP & Fox, many people believe that st.

[andymadmak]

AW111 said:

But it's not "take your pick".

This isn't a "my side good, your side bad" argument, but one where one side (the Republicans) are claiming that they won the election, but were cheated out of government by massive electoral fraud.

There are no facts to support this, but due to the relentless propagand from the GOP & Fox, many people believe that st.

I have a friend who has retired to live in Florida. He ran a successful US nationwide business, and is well travelled overseas. He's a very intelligent guy and generally speaking he's one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Generous, good humoured and with a large (mixed race) family. He's no Trump fan (the language he uses to describe him is mostly unprintable) but he is a Republican voter................ And he is absolutely 100% convinced that the election was stolen. I've asked him what proof he has for this, the more so since the various enquiries have come up blank, and his response is that he doesn't believe the enquiries.
He says that its very common knowledge that Democrats have been using postal votes, the Unions, and other forms of Gerrymandering for years (his assertion) and it's not surprising that they've gotten good enough at it such that they can do it largely without detection. He says he knows Democrats who openly boast of this, and absence of accepted proof is not necessarily evidence of absence of fraud. He can even cite one or two personal experiences that seem to reinforce his own views. He says the Democrats stole the election, but he cannot prove it.... in just the same way as when you see an amazing magic trick that you know MUST be a trick, but cannot actually prove how it was done, so it must be magic???

He thinks that the truth will come out one day, and he's not alone in his thinking. I've rarely seen him as agitated about anything as he is about this.
In short, you don't have to be a Trump supporter to believe that the election was stolen..

[paulguitar]

andymadmak said:

AW111 said:

But it's not "take your pick".

This isn't a "my side good, your side bad" argument, but one where one side (the Republicans) are claiming that they won the election, but were cheated out of government by massive electoral fraud.

There are no facts to support this, but due to the relentless propagand from the GOP & Fox, many people believe that st.

I have a friend who has retired to live in Florida. He ran a successful US nationwide business, and is well travelled overseas. He's a very intelligent guy and generally speaking he's one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Generous, good humoured and with a large (mixed race) family. He's no Trump fan (the language he uses to describe him is mostly unprintable) but he is a Republican voter................ And he is absolutely 100% convinced that the election was stolen. I've asked him what proof he has for this, the more so since the various enquiries have come up blank, and his response is that he doesn't believe the enquiries.
He says that its very common knowledge that Democrats have been using postal votes, the Unions, and other forms of Gerrymandering for years (his assertion) and it's not surprising that they've gotten good enough at it such that they can do it largely without detection. He says he knows Democrats who openly boast of this, and absence of accepted proof is not necessarily evidence of absence of fraud. He can even cite one or two personal experiences that seem to reinforce his own views. He says the Democrats stole the election, but he cannot prove it.... in just the same way as when you see an amazing magic trick that you know MUST be a trick, but cannot actually prove how it was done, so it must be magic???

He thinks that the truth will come out one day, and he's not alone in his thinking. I've rarely seen him as agitated about anything as he is about this.
In short, you don't have to be a Trump supporter to believe that the election was stolen..

Amazing stuff. He must have so little faith in his own country, to sincerely believe it is so corrupt.

His 'feelings' directly contradict what took place in the 2000 election, of course. Have you asked him about that?