Jimmy Carr and his (no) tax

[anonymous-user]

gingerpaul said:

I know K2 is Jersey but I am aware of other similar schemes operating out of the Cayman Islands and Belize where it'd be much harder work to get your money back...

been watching too much tv! no bank secrecy in cayman, just zero tax. trying to hide money there will end badly, hmrc will know about it before you get your first statement. as for not getting your money back i suggest you don't ever invest in a hedge fund because they are almost all based there. my biggest worry would be the onshore sharks promoting these dodgey schemes with no comeback when they go wrong

Edited by fbrs on Thursday 28th June 20:02

[gingerpaul]

fbrs said:

gingerpaul said:

I know K2 is Jersey but I am aware of other similar schemes operating out of the Cayman Islands and Belize where it'd be much harder work to get your money back...

been watching too much tv! no bank secrecy in cayman, just zero tax. trying to hide money there will end badly, hmrc will know about it before you get your first statement. as for not getting your money back i suggest you don't ever invest in a hedge fund because they are almost all based there. my biggest worry would be the onshore sharks promoting these dodgey schemes.

Edited by fbrs on Thursday 28th June 20:01

No TV I'm afraid. I've yet to see a sensible and balanced report on the news about this. As it happens I have spoken at length to a salesman who was selling exactly these products to someone I know. I quizzed him about how it all worked out of curiosity but I'm no financial expert so couldn't get into the really clever stuff.

This particular company were offering their services with 4 locations to choose from, of which I can remember Jersey and Belize. I'm pretty sure Switzerland was in there and there was a tropical island in there which I have mistakenly remembered as the Caymans. It may have been the Seychelles but I couldn't tell you for certain I'm afraid.

I just find it staggering that people can gift £x,000,000 or more to someone in Belize to receive a loan back. Forget the tax benefits. Who says they're not going to do a runner? Even if they do who says that one day they won't want it back.

[gingerpaul]

Ayahuasca said:

gingerpaul said:

Manks said:

I think that how the loan is made and the conditions of it are where the magic happens, and we may never find out the details.

I'm not specifically referring to K2 as there are various different schemes operating that do the same sort of thing. It's more the mechanics of how this works in practice that interests me.

For example would a person who signs up know what those conditions? If so then then the details will be out there at some point soon I would think. If not then it really is a leap of faith that having gifted the money that you will receive a loan back. I know K2 is Jersey but I am aware of other similar schemes operating out of the Cayman Islands and Belize where it'd be much harder work to get your money back and therefore an even bigger leap.

Again, assuming that the terms are clear that you won't have to repay the loan for a long period of time, say payable on death, then how long does that period of time have to be before it is classed as a non-repayable loan and tax is due on it?

Ignoring morals and legalities I think it's fascinating personally. I am a bit odd though.

The bottom line with trusts is that you have to trust the trustees. That's why they are called 'trusts' and a lot are run by the big banks so the perceived risk is the same as a bank not paying your money back that you lend to them. There is little investor protection legislation in the Caribbean and it is no coincidence that many scams are based there the most recent example being Stanford (Antigua - lovely place for a holiday, rubbish place for your life savings). Cayman is mainly hedge funds and Belize, well, any jurisdiction that advertises itself as having the toughest bank secrecy laws and no exchange of information treaties is marketing itself to a particular kind of customer that possibly would not be as welcomed elsewhere.

I wasn't aware of the bit in bold. I can see why people in this business would base their trusts there but for the same reason that would make me very nervous were I to have a problem!

[anonymous-user]

gingerpaul said:

I just find it staggering that people can gift £x,000,000 or more to someone in Belize to receive a loan back. Forget the tax benefits. Who says they're not going to do a runner? Even if they do who says that one day they won't want it back.

belize-couldnt agree more and i grew up there! dodgey as fvck. i was just pointing out that cayman and jersey are absolutely nothing like belize/panama/switzerland/lux. huge difference between british overseas territorys with zero tax and countries with bank secrecy laws. ignoring the legal jurisdiction of the 'trust', i could never bring myself to write a cheque to any of the pirates selling the schemes that i met. as far as i can tell most of these schemes work by flying under the radar and not getting notice, as soon as they are they dont work.

Edited by fbrs on Thursday 28th June 21:13

[gingerpaul]

fbrs said:

couldnt agree more and i grew up there! dodgey as fvck. i was just pointing out that cayman and jersey are absolutely nothing like belize/panama/switzerland/lux. huge difference between british overseas territorys with zero tax and countries with bank secrecy laws. ignoring the legal jurisdiction of the 'trust', i could never bring myself to write a cheque to any of the pirates selling the schemes that i met. as far as i can tell most of these schemes work by flying under the radar and not getting notice, as soon as they are they dont work.

Apologies for the inaccuracy and thanks for the clarification. Having spoken to an accountant friend in the city he said he was aware of some partners in the big accountancy firms using similar schemes themselves, although he did say that he doubted any of them were using Belize! For me personally I'd hate to have the doubt hanging over my head. Financial planning is as much about mitigating risk as getting the absolute best returns. I suppose it comes down to risk and reward ultimately and I'm fairly risk averse. I suspect I'll never be in a position to worry about such things though so I won't lose too much sleep over it.

[Ayahuasca]

fbrs said:

belize-couldnt agree more and i grew up there! dodgey as fvck. i was just pointing out that cayman and jersey are absolutely nothing like belize/panama/switzerland/lux. huge difference between british overseas territorys with zero tax and countries with bank secrecy laws. ignoring the legal jurisdiction of the 'trust', i could never bring myself to write a cheque to any of the pirates selling the schemes that i met. as far as i can tell most of these schemes work by flying under the radar and not getting notice, as soon as they are they dont work.

Edited by fbrs on Thursday 28th June 21:13

I lived in Belize as a kid too!

I would Belize towards the lower end of the offshore spectrum, Cayman, BVI, Bahamas, Nevis, etc plus Delaware just above, Switz / Lux / Panama above them and Jersey, Guernsey and IOM at the top.

[anonymous-user]

Ayahuasca said:

I lived in Belize as a kid too!

I would Belize towards the lower end of the offshore spectrum, Cayman, BVI, Bahamas, Nevis, etc plus Delaware just above, Switz / Lux / Panama above them and Jersey, Guernsey and IOM at the top.

wow, small world! i lived in belize city, princess margaret drive until about 1990

what are your criteria for this spectrum? dodgy to legit? in which case i'd respectfully disagree. imo at the bottom end you have the bank secrecy crowd(belize/panama) and annonymous company ownership (delaware), a load in the middle, then, sat well on top, dublin, the netherlands and the british overseas territories, including cayman that arn't even on the oecd grey list...

[Ayahuasca]

fbrs said:

Ayahuasca said:

I lived in Belize as a kid too!

I would Belize towards the lower end of the offshore spectrum, Cayman, BVI, Bahamas, Nevis, etc plus Delaware just above, Switz / Lux / Panama above them and Jersey, Guernsey and IOM at the top.

wow, small world! i lived in belize city, princess margaret drive until about 1990

what are your criteria for this spectrum? dodgy to legit? in which case i'd respectfully disagree. imo at the bottom end you have the bank secrecy crowd(belize/panama) and annonymous company ownership (delaware), a load in the middle, then, sat well on top, dublin, the netherlands and the british overseas territories, including cayman that arn't even on the oecd grey list...

I was there until 1976 - also Princess Margarets Drive! Used to enjoy messing about in boats and fishing. List is dodgy to legit, top of my head. I live in Panama so don't consider it particularly dodgy, but on second thoughts, it probably is! In some ways it is incredibly well policed i.e. the due diligence needed to open a bank account is more demanding than say in say the UK but on the other hand you can set up a company with bearer shares which is a tad suspect these days. Interestingly the US IRS has a massive office here dedicated to 'helping' US citizens with their tax affairs...

[anonymous-user]

Ayahuasca said:

I was there until 1976 - also Princess Margarets Drive!