How do we think EU negotiations will go?
Discussion
Eddie Strohacker said:
PRTVR said:
No different to the EU repeatedly saying it's the UK's problem.
We weren't shown the door. We made the choice. Well you did.desolate said:
James TiT said:
He is wrong.
expandWe're following EU law in leaving and it's on both parties to come to some sensible agreement about the future relationship. The idea that Britain has to keep compromising and coming up with ideas until the EU says 'yeah great, let's go with that' is patently ridiculous. If that were the case it would be far simpler for the EU to simply state what they will accept and for Britain to make a take it or leave it decision on that.
It's a negotiation, both sides need to negotiate otherwise it's not a negotiation.
skahigh said:
Varadker is not wrong of course in the sense that Britain triggered the process however, the EU as a whole put in place under EU law a method for a country to leave the union, they can't very well turn around and say 'nothing to do with us guv' when a country chooses to trigger that process.
We're following EU law in leaving and it's on both parties to come to some sensible agreement about the future relationship. The idea that Britain has to keep compromising and coming up with ideas until the EU says 'yeah great, let's go with that' is patently ridiculous. If that were the case it would be far simpler for the EU to simply state what they will accept and for Britain to make a take it or leave it decision on that.
It's a negotiation, both sides need to negotiate otherwise it's not a negotiation.
The comment was just in relation to the NI issue, not the whole brexit process.We're following EU law in leaving and it's on both parties to come to some sensible agreement about the future relationship. The idea that Britain has to keep compromising and coming up with ideas until the EU says 'yeah great, let's go with that' is patently ridiculous. If that were the case it would be far simpler for the EU to simply state what they will accept and for Britain to make a take it or leave it decision on that.
It's a negotiation, both sides need to negotiate otherwise it's not a negotiation.
Not sure which thread had the argument about EU nationals in the NHS. Some figures.
https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
PurpleMoonlight said:
The comment was just in relation to the NI issue, not the whole brexit process.
The same applies though, if they don't actively engage in solving the issue it simply won't get get solved and we will end up with a hard border, I'd be surprised if there are many people that want that.The exit bill is the same, refuse to engage in negotiations and the EU will end up with nothing.
I'm sure at the moment it's all still brinkmanship (on both sides) but, it's a dangerous game to play.
skahigh said:
The same applies though, if they don't actively engage in solving the issue it simply won't get get solved and we will end up with a hard border, I'd be surprised if there are many people that want that.
The exit bill is the same, refuse to engage in negotiations and the EU will end up with nothing.
I'm sure at the moment it's all still brinkmanship (on both sides) but, it's a dangerous game to play.
What makes you think the EU have an issue with a hard border?The exit bill is the same, refuse to engage in negotiations and the EU will end up with nothing.
I'm sure at the moment it's all still brinkmanship (on both sides) but, it's a dangerous game to play.
Only the UK and Ireland do.
London424 said:
Not sure which thread had the argument about EU nationals in the NHS. Some figures.
https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
Crumbs, some seriously retarded and grasping at straws comments in that Twitter thread.https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
London424 said:
Not sure which thread had the argument about EU nationals in the NHS. Some figures.
https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
The figures do not appear to reflect published reality. It suggests there are 20,000 Nurses in the UK - not saying if they are from EU or wherever.https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/9318669631...
Reality = Nurses & midwives in the UK - May 2017
582,628 (84.7%) from the UK
37,442 (5.4%) from the EU/EEA
67,439 (9.8%) from outside the EU/EEA
Source - Nursing & Midwivery Council
The issue was never about actual numbers anyway, it was about EU applications plummeting from hundreds/month to tens/month.
What is Frazer trying to do with his tweet, one wonders? Who will fall for it? Is he from St Petersburg?
No-one falls for misleading tweets - I read it here earlier.
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th November 16:02
Edited by ///ajd on Saturday 18th November 16:06
Eddie Strohacker said:
Bit of a cop out to say it's the EU's problem. To them, NI is no different from any other SM external border. What makes us so special? Varadker's facing competing interests in that his trade relies on easy access but his prosperity is borne of EU membership. Does he maintain EU unity or put Ireland first?
The EU, UK and Eire don't agree with you. They are treating this issue as different to the rest of the block. You know this, so why are you suggesting this isn't the case?Unless you are a child, you know this is everyone's problem to find a solution to and without the acceptance of that the problem wont be solved.
As I've said numerous times now, all that is required is the political will and it will be sorted out in short order, but they wont do that yet because they are trying to use Ireland as a bargaining chip to the wider issue of money.
At least be honest about it Eddie, if you continue to suggest this isn't a one off situation that all parties have agreed to work on as a separate issue to the main negotiation, then you will have to be put in my ignore box whenever this issue comes up, along with everyone else who continues to peddle the idea that this isn't being treated as a stand alone problem.
jsf said:
The EU position paper on this doesn't agree with you. I suggest you not only read it but absorb what it says.
My understanding is that they have no solution to the problem brexit creates and are inviting the UK to propose one.
Is this incorrect?
Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Saturday 18th November 16:11
PurpleMoonlight said:
jsf said:
The EU position paper on this doesn't agree with you. I suggest you not only read it but absorb what it says.
My understanding is that they have no solution to the problem brexit creates and are inviting the UK to propose one.
Is this incorrect?
Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Saturday 18th November 16:11
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-politic...
"The European Council Guidelines following the United Kingdom’s notification under Article
50 TEU and the subsequent directives for the negotiation of an agreement with the United
Kingdom on its withdrawal from the European Union include specific provisions relating to
the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland (paragraphs 11 and 14 respectively). In its
resolution of 5 April 2017, the European Parliament also recognises the unique position of
and the special circumstances confronting the island of Ireland.
Issues unique to Ireland include the protection of the gains of the peace process and of the
Good Friday Agreement ('Belfast Agreement')1
in all its parts, the maintenance of existing
bilateral agreements and arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland including
the Common Travel Area, and specific issues arising from Ireland’s unique geographic
situation, including the aim of avoiding a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
The invisible border on the island of Ireland is one of the major achievements and societal
benefits of the Peace Process. Border issues are broader than economic questions. The
physical border itself was a symbol of division and conflict.
This paper is different from the other papers in preparation of a European Union position to
be presented to the United Kingdom in the context of negotiations under Art. 50, in line
with the process established related to the discussions on Ireland/Northern Ireland. The
present paper does not put forward solutions for the Irish border. The onus to propose
solutions which overcome the challenges created on the island of Ireland by the United
Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union and its decision to leave the customs union
and the internal market remains on the United Kingdom.
A thorough understanding of the other issues beyond customs arrangements which are
relevant to the border is also required in order to move forward to discussing solutions in
the context of the dialogue with the United Kingdom.
It is the responsibility of the United Kingdom to ensure that its approach to the challenges of
the Irish border in the context of its withdrawal from the European Union takes into account
and protects the very specific and interwoven political, economic, security, societal and
agricultural context and frameworks on the island of Ireland. These challenges will require a
unique solution which cannot serve to preconfigure solutions in the context of the wider
discussions on the future relationship between the European Union and the United
Kingdom.
As an essential element of the withdrawal process, there needs to be a political
commitment to protecting the Good Friday Agreement in all its parts, to protecting the
gains of the peace process, and to the practical application of this on the island of Ireland.
As stated in the Guidelines, in view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, and
in order to protect the Good Friday Agreement in all its parts, flexible and imaginative
solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border. These solutions
must respect the proper functioning of the internal market and of the Customs Union as
well the integrity and effectiveness of the Union legal order.
The principles underpinning this approach are set out below. Agreement on these principles
will form the basis for the subsequent negotiation of solutions.
Good Friday Agreement and Peace Process
The European Union and the United Kingdom, as a co-guarantor with Ireland of the Good
Friday Agreement, should continue to support peace, stability and reconciliation on the
island of Ireland.
The Good Friday Agreement was concluded on 10 April 1998 against the background of
membership of the European Union by Ireland and the United Kingdom and the common
framework of European Union law and Union policies underpins the operation of many of
its institutions. The gains and benefits of peace which have been achieved through the Good
Friday Agreement and facilitated and supported by the European Union should continue to
be protected and strengthened. They include societal benefits and the normalisation of
relations between communities in Northern Ireland and between North and South.
(1) The Good Friday Agreement established interlocking political institutions which
reflect the totality of the relationships on the islands of Great Britain and Ireland.2
The institutions, which provide frameworks for cooperation between both parts of
the island and between Ireland and Great Britain, will need to continue to operate
effectively.3
(2) Ensuring the avoidance of a hard border on the island of Ireland is central to
protecting the gains of the Peace Process underpinned by the Good Friday
Agreement. In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and
imaginative solutions will be required to avoid a hard border, including any physical
border infrastructure. This must be achieved in a way which ensures that Ireland's
place within the Internal Market and Customs Union is unaffected.
(3) North South cooperation between Ireland and Northern Ireland is a central part of
the Good Friday Agreement and should be protected across all of the relevant
sectors.
4
This cooperation is embedded in the common framework of European
Union law policies. It will be necessary for the European Union and the United
Kingdom to examine whether, and if so how, the fact that European Union law
ceases to apply in the United Kingdom after withdrawal might impact on continued
cooperation and whether specific provisions need to be inserted in the Withdrawal
Agreement.
(4) The Good Friday Agreement includes provisions on Rights, Safeguards and Equality
of Opportunity5
, for which European Union law and practice has provided a
supporting framework in Northern Ireland and across the island. The Good Friday
Agreement requires equivalent standards of protection of rights in Ireland and
Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom should ensure that no diminution of rights is
caused by the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union, including in
the area of protection against forms of discrimination currently enshrined in Union
law.
(5) As regards citizenship, the Good Friday Agreement recognises the birthright of all of
the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or
British, or both, as they may so choose. Further, it confirms that their right to hold
both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be
affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland. Full account should
be taken of the fact that Irish citizens residing in Northern Ireland will continue to
enjoy rights as EU citizens. To this end, the Withdrawal Agreement should respect
and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with
European Union citizenship for the people of Northern Ireland who choose to assert
their right to Irish citizenship6
.
(6) The Union has provided significant support to the Peace Process including through
programmes such as PEACE and INTERREG. The United Kingdom and the Union need
to honour their commitments under the current Multi-annual Financial Framework
and examine how to ensure implementation in line with applicable European Union
rules, including as regards the role and location of the Special European Union
Programmes Body.
Common Travel Area
The Common Travel Area is a long-standing arrangement between Ireland and the United
Kingdom, predating either country’s accession to the Union, which enables Irish and British
citizens to travel and reside in either jurisdiction without restriction and provides for
associated rights and privileges in both jurisdictions.
(1) The continued operation of the Common Travel Area is fundamental to facilitating the
interaction of people in Ireland and the United Kingdom. Furthermore, it underpins the
peace process and the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement, in particular the
citizenship and identity provisions, by facilitating the movement of people across the
island of Ireland.
(2) Continuation of the Common Travel Area arrangements, in conformity with European
Union law, should be recognised. The United Kingdom has expressed its readiness to
ensure that the Common Travel Area can continue to operate without compromising
Ireland's ability to honour its obligations as a European Union Member State, including
in relation to free movement for European Economic Area nationals to and from Ireland."
jjlynn27 said:
Tuna said:
jjlynn27 said:
Why should you care if the correct description is assigned to you? I probably disagree with most of NP&E yet, liar is reserved for people, wait for it, lie. Once again, you were given the page and thread where you lied.
You also said (we can find the page number if it helps) that you wouldn't repeat that if I 'stopped lying'. Which makes you a hypocrite. Whenever you are ready.
PurpleMoonlight said:
jsf said:
The EU position paper on this doesn't agree with you. I suggest you not only read it but absorb what it says.
My understanding is that they have no solution to the problem brexit creates and are inviting the UK to propose one.
Is this incorrect?
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 18th November 16:11
I can't see a solution that won't p
s off a substantial part of the equation.Let's hope someone has a brainwave.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 18th November 19:07
jjlynn27 said:
Still waiting for 'we' to 'find the page number'.
Whenever you are ready.
Sorry, whilst it is fun winding you up, I really have got better things to do than hunt through over five hundred pages of arguments. Whenever you are ready.
So let's go with your version, you can call me a liar as much as you want. Go on, I know you want to
But if you want to refute something I say, you really ought to do better than rely on my terrible reputation. I reserve the right to tell the truth, however much that might distress you.
Anyway, how's the grudge going? Still sore somewhere?
I'd assume that the proponents of brexit will make good on their promises around trade.
Many of us wondered how they had planned for this scenario but had many explicit assurances about equivalent or better trading terms being available to the UK post-brexit. Now it's time for them to deliver the goods and they've only got a very limited time to do so.
Many of us wondered how they had planned for this scenario but had many explicit assurances about equivalent or better trading terms being available to the UK post-brexit. Now it's time for them to deliver the goods and they've only got a very limited time to do so.
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