New teachers strike wtf
Discussion
Rovinghawk said:
Mr Snap said:
If you think your job is surrounded by red tape, you should try teaching. It isn't teachers who rewrite The National Curriculum every day before breakfast.
Is this truth or wild exaggeration?For instance, Gove introduced the EBac, and instantly made it applicable as a measurement of schools (for those of you that don't know this meant that students who gained GCSEs at C or above in maths, English. Science, a humanities and a language got an additional qualification, the English baccalaureate), so of course schools scrambled to fulfil the requirements of the EBac ASAP. This year the EBac is gone, but four years worth of students have been forced down routes that are The ones that they would have chosen themselves. It's now best 8 subjects as a measure. How long will that last? Who knows!
As Mr Snap has said the red tape in education is massive. Class sizes are getting ridiculous (I had, for a short while, a class of 39 students) and the system itself needs a top down overhaul.
However for those who seem to think that this is the fault of teachers, I'd love to know the justification! Teachers are in essence like mechanics. We have to repair the clapped out old banger that we are presented with and make it able to run as well as possible. It's not our fault that the system was flawed from inception. Neither is it our fault that Gove is unwilling to listen to educational experts in his drive to make changes.
I love being a teacher. I thrive on interaction with young people. They have the capacity to amuse, amaze, frustrate and entertain (sometimes all at once!), and it's something that I am pretty good at (I've never had an observation below good since my NQT year, and in the last 4 years nothing below outstanding). However I cannot describe how disheartening it is to read the negativity that is vented against the profession, which is in my experience (on the whole) made up of genuine people who really do have the best interests of the students at heart. Some of them, undoubtably, wouldn't be able to make it in other professions (I know my main colleague, also an outstanding and in my opinion a significantly more inspirational teacher than I am) wouldn't, but his presence in the classroom makes a difference to all his students. Couldn't the claim that some people in the private sector are the same, trapped in professions as they cannot do anything else?
You may or may not agree with the strikes (personally I do not, and do not strike). However the constitutional right to strike exists for teachers, and some have chosen to exercise that right. That's just the way it is I'm afraid!
Rovinghawk said:
What I know about teaching is that my teacher friends are retiring in their early 50s on very comfortable terms, they have holiday entitlements most of us can only dream about and the '3 A*' products of their educational efforts have been almost exclusively a waste of space who know little, care less and require a great deal of remedial work before I consider them fit to be let loose in my workplace without supervision.
I'd be interested in hearing if any PH parent has a child who achieved 3 A* grades at a-level and whether they considered their child "completely useless"? It's not been my experience.
Countdown said:
Rovinghawk said:
What I know about teaching is that my teacher friends are retiring in their early 50s on very comfortable terms, they have holiday entitlements most of us can only dream about and the '3 A*' products of their educational efforts have been almost exclusively a waste of space who know little, care less and require a great deal of remedial work before I consider them fit to be let loose in my workplace without supervision.
I'd be interested in hearing if any PH parent has a child who achieved 3 A* grades at a-level and whether they considered their child "completely useless"? It's not been my experience.
Martin_M said:
PT Primary here - bottom line is that those in the public sector are underpaid.
Is that belief one considered including pensions entitlement? Do you understand the value of a career teacher's pension entitlement?Martin_M said:
My other half works in recruitment and the basic salaries of the new starts are unbelievably high. Kids aside, the holidays are superb!
In her limited field starting salaries for grads might be high right now but that would be unusual when seen across the industry. It would further be unusual if those high salaries were high in themselves rather than including commission elements. Right now recruitment is doing well but how has it faired (outside of very specific specialisms - mostly London based) during the downturn? What are the turnover rates? What are the pension provisions?You can do very well in recruitment if you're good/ballsy/hard-working and specialise. If you're average and/or work in a non-specialist and high fees sector you will work long hours in a role without any security and earn peanuts. You won't be in it for long and you won't have access to a pension worth looking at. Oh, and your holidays will be effectively unpaid but mercifully short.
You can eanr a decent salary as a teacher these days - even if you're only averagely competent. If you're successful your pay can be pretty darn good indeed. Once you factor in pensions entitlement (admittedly not as good today as it was for new starters in years gone by - but still well above excellent) the pay isn't so bad.
I concede, whilst I have paid my pension contributions since I started teaching 7 years ago, I couldn't tell you how they compare to other fields in all honesty. To get the full entitlement I believe I'll need to work the full 40 years but I would hope that I can do what a couple of colleagues did and retire in my mid 50s for a bit less.
As for recruitment, not sure what the new graduates get - I've only really heard about the managers coming in. It seems there's a very high turnover of staff in that sector too.
As for recruitment, not sure what the new graduates get - I've only really heard about the managers coming in. It seems there's a very high turnover of staff in that sector too.
Countdown said:
I'd be interested in hearing if any PH parent has a child who achieved 3 A* grades at a-level and whether they considered their child "completely useless"? It's not been my experience.
The parent generally doesn't have their offspring working for them in a commercial environment; if they do, the kid is very often spoonfed compared to the rest of the workforce. I was given one of the allegedly best & brightest- I hope never to come across any of his type again.
Indeed, it's pointless to have 3A*'s at A-Level if you lack some of the other traits that make an employee. However, isn't this why people go to University? Whilst education at secondary level was too difficult for the likes of me, it doesn't brush on the surface what is covered at University. But in my experience of Uni, is that it teaches you far more about yourself as you're left to do more research on your own and this reflects your grades accordingly.
I'm a bit concerned why you took on a 'best and brightest' who had 3A*'s at A-Level and the kid didn't go to Uni? Seem's very bogus.
The two girls that go to my wife's school that I have met, both got 4A*'s at A-Level and are exceptionally bright. They are confident, but humble and excel in communication for their age. I don't know about one of the girls, but the other took Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Further Maths and on the side did an equivalent Music Technology course and got a distinction. I'd give up everything to have a child that bright and socially normal!
The bigger problem, is the parents who perceive their children to be brilliant, but aren't and make excuses for their behaviour and results. One parent last year exclaimed his daughters composition was indeed an 'A' because "If it was in the charts, I would buy it!".
I'm a bit concerned why you took on a 'best and brightest' who had 3A*'s at A-Level and the kid didn't go to Uni? Seem's very bogus.
The two girls that go to my wife's school that I have met, both got 4A*'s at A-Level and are exceptionally bright. They are confident, but humble and excel in communication for their age. I don't know about one of the girls, but the other took Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Further Maths and on the side did an equivalent Music Technology course and got a distinction. I'd give up everything to have a child that bright and socially normal!
The bigger problem, is the parents who perceive their children to be brilliant, but aren't and make excuses for their behaviour and results. One parent last year exclaimed his daughters composition was indeed an 'A' because "If it was in the charts, I would buy it!".
Edited by SpeedMattersNot on Friday 2nd May 08:22
SpeedMattersNot said:
I'm a bit concerned why you took on a 'best and brightest' who had 3A*'s at A-Level and the kid didn't go to Uni? Seem's very bogus.
Undergraduate on placement. God help when he's let loose in an unsupervised environment.Edited by Rovinghawk on Friday 2nd May 10:13
Rovinghawk said:
SpeedMattersNot said:
I'm a bit concerned why you took on a 'best and brightest' who had 3A*'s at A-Level and the kid didn't go to Uni? Seem's very bogus.
Undergraduate on placement. God help when he's let loose in an unsupervised environment.Edited by Rovinghawk on Friday 2nd May 10:13
scenario8 said:
Martin_M said:
PT Primary here - bottom line is that those in the public sector are underpaid.
Is that belief one considered including pensions entitlement? Do you understand the value of a career teacher's pension entitlement?scenario8 said:
You can eanr a decent salary as a teacher these days - even if you're only averagely competent.
Define "decent"?These days, in any reasonable school, an averagely competent teacher would be left behind and might even be managed out. Having a face that fits does seem to carry a lot of weight though.
SpeedMattersNot said:
Have you found kids without a-levels better? Curious what job this is too.
Ive taken a few kids on, lacking in experiance and qualifications. But very driven.These are in architectural roles, and they soon outshine some more experianced employees.
I find if people are motivated by money, they usually rise to the top. They soon develop whatever skills required to become better at their jobs and as such force you to pay them more.
Often i accept that this type of employee will outgrow us. But far better to have them than the standard half arsed employees that walk through the door thinking a qualification enables them to do the job.
SpeedMattersNot said:
Have you found kids without a-levels better? Curious what job this is too.
Engineer's assistant on construction sites. A huge variety of tasks according to whatever we happen to be doing.The ones with no qualifications are easier to mould to what we need as they have fewer preconceptions as to their worth and don't find the work beneath them. They are generally more receptive to training.
Do you believe these traits are down to their qualifications?
I've worked with tens of apprentices and trust me, they have virtually no qualifications and the vast majority were, in my opinion, unemployable.
I would argue whilst it may contribute, ultimately it's down to other variables such as the individuals family, friends, environment etc.
The girl who I mentioned previously took a year out before going to Cambridge to work at a local nursing home that specialises in caring for people with Dementia.
Anyway, these are just our own experiences, but I would much rather my daughter grows up like the two girls I mentioned, than be a mouth breather like the apprentices I have encountered.
I've worked with tens of apprentices and trust me, they have virtually no qualifications and the vast majority were, in my opinion, unemployable.
I would argue whilst it may contribute, ultimately it's down to other variables such as the individuals family, friends, environment etc.
The girl who I mentioned previously took a year out before going to Cambridge to work at a local nursing home that specialises in caring for people with Dementia.
Anyway, these are just our own experiences, but I would much rather my daughter grows up like the two girls I mentioned, than be a mouth breather like the apprentices I have encountered.
Rovinghawk said:
Countdown said:
I'd be interested in hearing if any PH parent has a child who achieved 3 A* grades at a-level and whether they considered their child "completely useless"? It's not been my experience.
The parent generally doesn't have their offspring working for them in a commercial environment; if they do, the kid is very often spoonfed compared to the rest of the workforce. I was given one of the allegedly best & brightest- I hope never to come across any of his type again.
In the last few years we've recruited a fair few 16-18 year olds on "Apprentice"-type schemes, because we can get them below minimum wage. The quality of applicants has been excellent (perhaps because there isn't much else out there and they don't want to pay £9k pa tuition fees when we will provide day release). Yes, they're young and sometimes need to be "managed" but the suggestion that kids coming out of school these days with 3 A* grades (at A-level) are rubbish is a silly assertion. Kids aren't any better or worse than they were 20/30/500 years ago.
Countdown said:
In the last few years we've recruited a fair few 16-18 year olds on "Apprentice"-type schemes, because we can get them below minimum wage. The quality of applicants has been excellent (perhaps because there isn't much else out there and they don't want to pay £9k pa tuition fees when we will provide day release). Yes, they're young and sometimes need to be "managed" but the suggestion that kids coming out of school these days with 3 A* grades (at A-level) are rubbish is a silly assertion. Kids aren't any better or worse than they were 20/30/500 years ago.
That's not been the experience of small businesses I've spoken to, albeit mostly in the trades. You must be getting some of the better ones, or the work you do is aimed at 'graduates' (and I use that term loosely). But if we're talking about 3* grades then yes you would expect a degree of aptitude with that level of academic achievement.fido said:
That's not been the experience of small businesses I've spoken to, albeit mostly in the trades. You must be getting some of the better ones, or the work you do is aimed at 'graduates' (and I use that term loosely).
Junior finance roles - we can pay £2.60 per hour so not massively well paid but there's an in-house "training scheme" where they rotate between the different finance specialisms. We also put them through AAT or ACCA. It's aimed for people who would normally have gone to University but don't see the point of spending £000's only to start on the ground floor, so to speak.Your (and RovingHawk's) experience may well be the correct one - I'm just extremely surprised that people with 3 A* grades (which used to be Oxbridge calibre when I were a lad) are being considered as dross.
scenario8 said:
You can eanr a decent salary as a teacher these days - even if you're only averagely competent.
An 'averagely competent' teacher should be able to earn a decent salary. An excellent teacher should be able to earn a better than decent salary.I think you'll find that the Bell Curve applies in teaching (only Gove expects all teachers to be above average).
Mr Snap said:
scenario8 said:
You can eanr a decent salary as a teacher these days - even if you're only averagely competent.
An 'averagely competent' teacher should be able to earn a decent salary. An excellent teacher should be able to earn a better than decent salary.To which I would add that the worst teachers are woefully undersacked. Not so much with headteachers these days as their school entering an Ofsted category can see them off.
One of the things Gove has done - or is trying to do more on - is to make it easier to remove the weakest teachers. As expected, the Unions don't agree with this and dislike Gove even more as a result, but when have Unions had a monopoly on reasonableness! Gove is right on this score, pupils typically get one chance.
While appreciating the point made earlier about applications for teaching posts being thin on the ground, including zero responses, there are 'non-teaching' headteachers in many secondary schools and other senior leaders with lighter loads than average who ought to be getting out of their offices and taking the strain if a weak teacher is dismissed and a replacement isn't easy to find, and for as long as it takes.
The problem is, would they be any better...you would have to hope so.
Countdown said:
I have to be honest - if he isn't "right" for you I'd be wondering how he managed to get through your recruitment process.
Note my words "I was given".Schools seem to be giving kids a very narrow education specifically geared towards passing an exam & nothing else.
Their knowledge of anything not within the curriculum is pretty much non-existent yet they believe massively that their 3 A* certificates mean they're omniscient.
As I said, the less educated ones tend to be better raw material to work with. This does not reflect well on the education system.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff