How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?

[porridge]

Mrr T said:

So you are suggesting there will be Romanian and Bulgarian ghettos in the UK in 2014. You really are rather racist.

Why? Mass immigration of poor people results in initial ghettos, they live in the cheapest place they can find packing as many people in as possible until they can afford otherwise,

Are you aware of home many Matresses/Sofa's etc are dumped daily onto the poor parts of London's streets? They even have Facebook pages dedicated to them.

[Mrr T]

muffinmenace said:

That's not what he is saying at all. A well publicised issue that does back up his poi is the houses in the suburbs of London that boast large undeclared living space at the back, they seem somewhat ghetto-esque, no?

I have not seen any publicity. In my experience most councils are very quick to jump on illegal accommodation.

[Mermaid]

muffinmenace said:

That's not what he is saying at all. A well publicised issue that does back up his poi is the houses in the suburbs of London that boast large undeclared living space at the back, they seem somewhat ghetto-esque, no?

This?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049676/We...

[blindswelledrat]

porridge said:

.

Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.

I don't disagree with this.
I disagree with persistent anecdotes and twisting of facts to somehow prove that foreigners are nasty.
Whilst open door immigration is indeed too much, controlled immigration is essential.
All my umbrage is to you and other repeatedly posting examples of bad people and crying " LOOK HOW AWFUL THESE FOREIGNERS ARE".
It doesn't add to the discussion and it actually undermines the valid points you have.

[porridge]

Mrr T said:

I have not seen any publicity. In my experience most councils are very quick to jump on illegal accommodation.

You have not lived

As someone who has lived in Berkshire, Slough Southall and all that area is chock full, the council turn a blind eye- mainly as if they close this then the problem becomes theirs to deal with at a significant cost to resources and financials.

[Kermit power]

porridge said:

blindswelledrat said:

Every single white English person has greater opportunities in this country than an immigrant of the same calibre.

Firstly let's lose the 'white' part, a UK unskilled citizen cannot compete with 1)illegal workers or 2) workers willing to shack up 10 to a small flat to send money home. What you are advocating is not competition to drive quality of life forward, but instead a backward move for UK citizens to 3rd world standards.

This gets right to the very core of the issue.

You're moaning that domestic unskilled people can't afford a nice flat and a Sky subscription if they're having to compete against foreign unskilled people who are not only supporting themselves in the UK, they're also sending money back home as well, and all on lower wages.

What the hell gives the domestic unskilled a divine right to a nice flat and a Sky subscription in the first place????? If you don't have the skills to pay for what you want, then you either do without or you gain the skills to command a higher wage. Why is that so difficult to understand?

If your neighbour demanded that you buy them a new TV because they couldn't be arsed to work at school and can't afford to buy it themselves, would you just give them the TV? Of course not!

Why, then, are you protecting exactly that situation just because there are some immigrants willing to do the work more competitively? After all, you are paying for it to a degree anyway. You're paying for it through taxation spent on benefits, and you're paying it through increased prices to pay the higher wages.

porridge said:

Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.

Open Door immigration isn't madness per se, as can be seen by the fact that plenty of other EU countries aren't suffering in the way that we are. Open Door immigration only begins to be a part of madness when you couple it with unfettered access to ludicrously high benefits.

Strip away the benefits, and more people have to go out and work if they want to survive.

If more people have to go out to work to survive, there are less jobs for immigrants to walk in to when they get here.

Strip away the immediate access to benefits (for everyone, not just the immigrants) and fewer immigrants can afford to come here on spec, knowing they can fall back on benefits if they don't find a job quickly.

Do that, and Open Door immigration becomes a simple way of flexibly filling the gaps we've got.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

porridge said:

.

Open Door immigration is madness, work out how many people we need and what skill-sets are required and then let them in from Romania/Bulgaria or anywhere else on permits of a suitable timeframe.

I don't disagree with this.
I disagree with persistent anecdotes and twisting of facts to somehow prove that foreigners are nasty.
Whilst open door immigration is indeed too much, controlled immigration is essential.
All my umbrage is to you and other repeatedly posting examples of bad people and crying " LOOK HOW AWFUL THESE FOREIGNERS ARE".
It doesn't add to the discussion and it actually undermines the valid points you have.

What exactly is your point? That Open immigration is bad, but lets just ignore the issues it is causing until one day we may sort it out. That coach of 'nasty foreigners' was not selected by choice at the Daily Mail, it was chosen at random by The Independent- so why argue the fact that a sizeable part of these people, as befitting their standing as citizens of countries considered extremely corrupt, will push the law if not break it.

What are your point?
Who are you planning to vote for in the euro/generals?
How would you vote today on an In/Out referendum on current terms?

[Mermaid]

Kermit power said:

Strip away the immediate access to benefits (for everyone, not just the immigrants) and fewer immigrants can afford to come here on spec, knowing they can fall back on benefits if they don't find a job quickly.

Do that, and Open Door immigration becomes a simple way of flexibly filling the gaps we've got.

Agree to a large extent there, but we have the worst of all situations. So do we just carry on regardless or do this while we are growing well with the population we already have:



& introduce a points system.

[WinstonWolf]

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

Are you refering to Romanians or Bulgarians here?

Neither and both.

What (and I thought this was clear) I am getting at is that is you allow the least skilled and educated members of any nation into the UK, in numbers, you will get ghettos which resemble somewhere that other immigrants and UK residents would not recognise as the UK or wish to live in or near and where basic law and sanitation fall below the standards we would all look to uphold.

So you are suggesting there will be Romanian and Bulgarian ghettos in the UK in 2014. You really are rather racist.

I will take a picture of a high street in the UK for you next time I'm there. There is one 'English' shop left, the rest are Polish/Lithuanian/Latvian supermarkets.

[porridge]

Kermit power said:

This gets right to the very core of the issue.

You're moaning that domestic unskilled people can't afford a nice flat and a Sky subscription if they're having to compete against foreign unskilled people who are not only supporting themselves in the UK, they're also sending money back home as well, and all on lower wages.

What the hell gives the domestic unskilled a divine right to a nice flat and a Sky subscription in the first place????? If you don't have the skills to pay for what you want, then you either do without or you gain the skills to command a higher wage. Why is that so difficult to understand?

If your neighbour demanded that you buy them a new TV because they couldn't be arsed to work at school and can't afford to buy it themselves, would you just give them the TV? Of course not!

Why, then, are you protecting exactly that situation just because there are some immigrants willing to do the work more competitively? After all, you are paying for it to a degree anyway. You're paying for it through taxation spent on benefits, and you're paying it through increased prices to pay the higher wages.

Lower wages are an illusion, it is your taxes then paying for those 'in work' benefits, you are already buying that TV.

Besides, why do you classify working class as "nice flat and sky subscription"?? What most of these people want is a decent place to live, decent education for their offspring etc Sky subscription (which in any event creates jobs) stereotypes are not required.

Higher GDP vs Standard of life- you seem to choose the former.

Kermit power said:

Open Door immigration isn't madness per se, as can be seen by the fact that plenty of other EU countries aren't suffering in the way that we are. Open Door immigration only begins to be a part of madness when you couple it with unfettered access to ludicrously high benefits.

Strip away the benefits, and more people have to go out and work if they want to survive.

If more people have to go out to work to survive, there are less jobs for immigrants to walk in to when they get here.

Strip away the immediate access to benefits (for everyone, not just the immigrants) and fewer immigrants can afford to come here on spec, knowing they can fall back on benefits if they don't find a job quickly.

Do that, and Open Door immigration becomes a simple way of flexibly filling the gaps we've got.

Which other country is not suffering how we are? Italy & Spain which had Millions of Romanians as UK was closed till this Jan? Have a look at their unemployment rates and have a look at how many of their natives have left to destinations including the UK. Or how about Germany where the councils are writing to Merkel begging for more cash to cope. Or Holland where cities are point blank stating they will break Eu rules.

How about Belgium which has refused every single citizenship application in 2013?


All you ever do is bang the benefits drum.

[Digga]

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

For me - and I can only speak personally here - I have no problem with races or nations coming here, to work, or as genuine refugees.

What I don't want is to have to live next door to the third world. Fortunately (selfishly), I can afford to live a long way from poverty (although you are never far enough from the roaming criminal or litter-dropping scumbag), but I would not like to think those less affluent would need to be neighbours with crime and squalor. However, that is starting to happen in many areas and could lead to a downward spiral and ghettos of sub-human living conditions and epidemics of disease and vermin.

Are you refering to Romanians or Bulgarians here?

Neither and both.

What (and I thought this was clear) I am getting at is that is you allow the least skilled and educated members of any nation into the UK, in numbers, you will get ghettos which resemble somewhere that other immigrants and UK residents would not recognise as the UK or wish to live in or near and where basic law and sanitation fall below the standards we would all look to uphold.

So you are suggesting there will be Romanian and Bulgarian ghettos in the UK in 2014. You really are rather racist.

You really are the lowest common denominator aren't you? Incapable of reading and comprehending.

[vonuber]

Well the population of Romania must be about 100,000,000 then given how there are millions everywhere.

[blindswelledrat]

porridge said:

What exactly is your point? That Open immigration is bad, but lets just ignore the issues it is causing until one day we may sort it out. That coach of 'nasty foreigners' was not selected by choice at the Daily Mail, it was chosen at random by The Independent- so why argue the fact that a sizeable part of these people, as befitting their standing as citizens of countries considered extremely corrupt, will push the law if not break it.

My point, as was clear, is that coach load of people had nothing whatsoever to do with us. You are using irrelevant examples of criminals abroad to support your xenophobia. There was one person in that article bound for England and he seemed like a decent bloke. So if you are determined that the coach in question gets shoehorned into this thread then it would be an example demonstrating that a)they are seemingly not flooding here as you were so terrified and b)the only example you found of a person coming here seemed to be the sort of person that we want.

porridge said:

Who are you planning to vote for in the euro/generals?
How would you vote today on an In/Out referendum on current terms?

Vote wise- I have no idea. My vote will go to whoever I deem most competent at getting our economy on an even keel and currently Conservatives seem like the lesser of 4 evils. Whoever I vote for will be a vote against the other parties rather than a support of the party I vote for.

In/Out referendum would depend on a)me learning more about the economical negatives of voting out (which admittedly seem pretty intangible) and b)whether we can still keep certain aspects of being within the EU like Norway etc or whether we would be ostracised.

[Mrr T]

Digga said:

You really are the lowest common denominator aren't you? Incapable of reading and comprehending.

Oh I feel so put down.

I ask simple question based on what you post.

[Mrr T]

Guam said:

That and the "tarpaulin campsites" that spring up around the country, there was a fairly large one of note off the A1 (northbound) with these folk in. Those that don't believe there are issues are either being loose with the truth or deluding themselves.

Have you checked they are Romanians and Bulgarians? How many of them are there? How many camps. Or is this like the Camp they set up in Hyde Park which got reported by the BBC but no one could then find it.

[Mrr T]

WinstonWolf said:

I will take a picture of a high street in the UK for you next time I'm there. There is one 'English' shop left, the rest are Polish/Lithuanian/Latvian supermarkets.

I have seen them and shop often in one. When you can explain the connection between a ghetto and a supermarket let me know.

By the way my town is also full of Chinese and Indian restaurants.

[Digga]

Mrr T said:

Digga said:

You really are the lowest common denominator aren't you? Incapable of reading and comprehending.

Oh I feel so put down.

I ask simple question based on what you post.

You called me racist. You have, IMHO, relieved yourself of any right to assert rationality in the debate - that is a particularly low and idiotic blow in a debate such as this.

You can ask all you like (in correct or incorrect grammar - past tense is asked, not ask) but I'm no longer going to stoop to engaging with you.

[Kermit power]

Mrr T said:

WinstonWolf said:

I will take a picture of a high street in the UK for you next time I'm there. There is one 'English' shop left, the rest are Polish/Lithuanian/Latvian supermarkets.

I have seen them and shop often in one. When you can explain the connection between a ghetto and a supermarket let me know.

By the way my town is also full of Chinese and Indian restaurants.

Believe it or not, there's not one, not two but three Italian restaurants on our local High Street!!!! All these pesky Italians coming over here putting our English restaurants out of business!!!!

[Kermit power]

BIANCO said:

Because we live in a modern developed 1st world country not the 3rd world. I think we should expect in a country as wealthy as ours that anyone that contributes and works for a living should have at least a minimum standard of living to a 1st world standard.

I’m not saying they should expect to have a luxury flat or a flash car and I think you will find most of them wouldn’t. But expecting somewhere warm and dry to live, being able to feed and clothe yourself and your family isn’t unreasonable. The fact is I have no doubt that even this is a struggle living off the minimum wage.

You speak about the working class as though they are the lowest of the low. Most are hardworking decent people who just want to pay their way and do vital jobs that need doing. Not people who choose not to work.

It's an interesting assumption that we're a wealthy country when we've got a national debt of over £30k per working person.

Your Socialist ideal is great in theory, but in practice we simply can't afford it! Unemployment benefits, housing benefits, pensions, healthcare.... It's all got to be paid for somewhere, and we do not have the money to pay for it, hence the vast national debt and our kids' futures being more and more heavily mortgaged.

You say it's not unreasonable for people to expect somewhere warm and dry to live and to be able to feed and clothe their family. Let's flip that round the other way.... Why is it reasonable for people to even have a family if they can't afford to feed and clothe them? Why should the state (which of course actually means taxpayers like us) pay for them to have families?

[Steffan]

Kermit power said:

BIANCO said:

Because we live in a modern developed 1st world country not the 3rd world. I think we should expect in a country as wealthy as ours that anyone that contributes and works for a living should have at least a minimum standard of living to a 1st world standard.

I’m not saying they should expect to have a luxury flat or a flash car and I think you will find most of them wouldn’t. But expecting somewhere warm and dry to live, being able to feed and clothe yourself and your family isn’t unreasonable. The fact is I have no doubt that even this is a struggle living off the minimum wage.

You speak about the working class as though they are the lowest of the low. Most are hardworking decent people who just want to pay their way and do vital jobs that need doing. Not people who choose not to work.

It's an interesting assumption that we're a wealthy country when we've got a national debt of over £30k per working person.

Your Socialist ideal is great in theory, but in practice we simply can't afford it! Unemployment benefits, housing benefits, pensions, healthcare.... It's all got to be paid for somewhere, and we do not have the money to pay for it, hence the vast national debt and our kids' futures being more and more heavily mortgaged.

You say it's not unreasonable for people to expect somewhere warm and dry to live and to be able to feed and clothe their family. Let's flip that round the other way.... Why is it reasonable for people to even have a family if they can't afford to feed and clothe them? Why should the state (which of course actually means taxpayers like us) pay for them to have families?

The real problem in modern politics has become the madness of politicians continuing to spend taxpayers money at levels that that they know full are completely unaffordable. The aims of socialism and the eradication of poverty from society are laudable. But regrettably they have led to a massive non working population increase which is totally unaffordable. Since the UK cannot afford this it will end. The question is how? I would hope a managed return to self dependency and away from state dependency would be the answer. But one way or another this must happen, The current dependency costs are ruining the UK.