Taking the knee

[survivalist]

chrispmartha said:

ddom said:

chrispmartha said:

Im not the one assuming anything am I, Im doing the opposite saying it means different things to different people, some might know nothing of either of those organisations let alone about whether they are Marxist or not, I’d wager some don’t even know what Marxism is.

This is why the comparisons to a Nazi salute are lame

The only thing thing lame is you refusing to answer a direct question.

What was your direct question they read as rhetorical.

Try me again

Ill ask you one though

If you asked lets say 100 people

What does a Nazi Salute mean

And what does Taking the knee before a football game means

do you think the first question would get a higher percentage of people with the same answer as the latter?

Edited by chrispmartha on Thursday 10th June 19:33

Higher, yes. But I’d wager both would be north of 50%.

[chrispmartha]

Vanden Saab said:

chrispmartha said:

ddom said:

chrispmartha said:

Im not the one assuming anything am I, Im doing the opposite saying it means different things to different people, some might know nothing of either of those organisations let alone about whether they are Marxist or not, I’d wager some don’t even know what Marxism is.

This is why the comparisons to a Nazi salute are lame

The only thing thing lame is you refusing to answer a direct question.

What was your direct question they read as rhetorical.

Try me again

Ill ask you one though

If you asked lets say 100 people

What does a Nazi Salute mean

And what does Taking the knee before a football game means

do you think the first question would get a higher percentage of people with the same answer as the latter?

Edited by chrispmartha on Thursday 10th June 19:33

So we are back to what people who see it think it means now... Have we dropped the 'its what the people doing it say it means' now?

Edit... In before the edit...

Edited by Vanden Saab on Thursday 10th June 19:37

You seem to be struggling to follow the thread to be honest

[chrispmartha]

survivalist said:

chrispmartha said:

ddom said:

chrispmartha said:

Im not the one assuming anything am I, Im doing the opposite saying it means different things to different people, some might know nothing of either of those organisations let alone about whether they are Marxist or not, I’d wager some don’t even know what Marxism is.

This is why the comparisons to a Nazi salute are lame

The only thing thing lame is you refusing to answer a direct question.

What was your direct question they read as rhetorical.

Try me again

Ill ask you one though

If you asked lets say 100 people

What does a Nazi Salute mean

And what does Taking the knee before a football game means

do you think the first question would get a higher percentage of people with the same answer as the latter?

Edited by chrispmartha on Thursday 10th June 19:33

Higher, yes. But I’d wager both would be north of 50%.

Id wager the first would be closer to 100%

What do you think the 50% plus of the latter would say?

[survivalist]

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

chrispmartha said:

ddom said:

chrispmartha said:

Im not the one assuming anything am I, Im doing the opposite saying it means different things to different people, some might know nothing of either of those organisations let alone about whether they are Marxist or not, I’d wager some don’t even know what Marxism is.

This is why the comparisons to a Nazi salute are lame

The only thing thing lame is you refusing to answer a direct question.

What was your direct question they read as rhetorical.

Try me again

Ill ask you one though

If you asked lets say 100 people

What does a Nazi Salute mean

And what does Taking the knee before a football game means

do you think the first question would get a higher percentage of people with the same answer as the latter?

Edited by chrispmartha on Thursday 10th June 19:33

Higher, yes. But I’d wager both would be north of 50%.

Id wager the first would be closer to 100%

What do you think the 50% plus of the latter would say?

That more people associate taking the knee with BLM than people who don’t.

IMO 50% is a very conservative estimate.

[chrispmartha]

survivalist said:

That more people associate taking the knee with BLM than people who don’t.

IMO 50% is a very conservative estimate.

I would probably agree, now, what do you reckon they think Black Lives Matter means, do you think they’d all think the same?

[survivalist]

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

That more people associate taking the knee with BLM than people who don’t.

IMO 50% is a very conservative estimate.

I would probably agree, now, what do you reckon they think Black Lives Matter means, do you think they’d all think the same?

So you’re now agreeing that the majority of people associate taking the knee with BLM. I guess that’s some progress.

In terms of what it means, I think to most it means an activist organisation associated with civil unrest in the USA and a series of protests in U.K. cities in 2020. Also the death of George Floyd.

[chrispmartha]

Anyway, im going to watch the rugby now, ill try not let the players preaching to me by making a gesture for 13 seconds before kick off and the rainbow laces for pride not put me off enjoying it.

[chrispmartha]

survivalist said:

So you’re now agreeing that the majority of people associate taking the knee with BLM. I guess that’s some progress.

In terms of what it means, I think to most it means an activist organisation associated with civil unrest in the USA and a series of protests in U.K. cities in 2020. Also the death of George Floyd.

Ive never said otherwise.

I think you’d be right with the death of George Floyd not so sure about the activist organisation.

[vulture1]

Just checking in. is the current fad to kneel against racism or stand up to racism...?

[mrporsche]

It’s difficult to “kick” it out whilst kneeling

[JNW1]

chrispmartha said:

I would probably agree, now, what do you reckon they think Black Lives Matter means, do you think they’d all think the same?

But isn't the reality a simple anti-racism message/stance that avoided links to BLM could have avoided all this? There was absolutely no need for the close alignment to BLM, that was done by choice and, given some of their policies, was almost guaranteed to be divisive; the only reason it hasn't looked that way for the last few months is because for the most part spectators haven't been allowed in grounds.

When footballers take the knee in the name of an organisation that advocates pulling down statues of James Cook - and do so in Middlesbrough which was in effect Cook's home town - is it really surprising the gesture's met with a chorus of boos?

[survivalist]

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

So you’re now agreeing that the majority of people associate taking the knee with BLM. I guess that’s some progress.

In terms of what it means, I think to most it means an activist organisation associated with civil unrest in the USA and a series of protests in U.K. cities in 2020. Also the death of George Floyd.

Ive never said otherwise.

I think you’d be right with the death of George Floyd not so sure about the activist organisation.

Earlier on this thread you seemed to be pretty sure the two weren't inexorably linked. Clearly just an opinion, but most people associate words and phrases with the things grey have had most exposure to. Given that most British people won't have had much physical contact with black lives matter (the organisation or individuals from said organisation) in the last 15 months, it's more than likely to be:

George Floyd
Civil Unrest in the USA
Protests in the UK
Statues being torn down
Taking the Knee
The recent shooting of a UK BLM member

[rscott]

JNW1 said:

chrispmartha said:

I would probably agree, now, what do you reckon they think Black Lives Matter means, do you think they’d all think the same?

But isn't the reality a simple anti-racism message/stance that avoided links to BLM could have avoided all this? There was absolutely no need for the close alignment to BLM, that was done by choice and, given some of their policies, was almost guaranteed to be divisive; the only reason it hasn't looked that way for the last few months is because for the most part spectators haven't been allowed in grounds.

When footballers take the knee in the name of an organisation that advocates pulling down statues of James Cook - and do so in Middlesbrough which was in effect Cook's home town - is it really surprising the gesture's met with a chorus of boos?

So more like the approach of F1? They're using a simple "End Racism" slogan and drivers can choose to stand or kneel as they see fit.

If the players copy that, would that mean booing becomes unacceptable as they're obviously not in any way endorsing any organisations or agendas of any groups with names relating to BLM.

[chrispmartha]

survivalist said:

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

So you’re now agreeing that the majority of people associate taking the knee with BLM. I guess that’s some progress.

In terms of what it means, I think to most it means an activist organisation associated with civil unrest in the USA and a series of protests in U.K. cities in 2020. Also the death of George Floyd.

Ive never said otherwise.

I think you’d be right with the death of George Floyd not so sure about the activist organisation.

Earlier on this thread you seemed to be pretty sure the two weren't inexorably linked. Clearly just an opinion, but most people associate words and phrases with the things grey have had most exposure to. Given that most British people won't have had much physical contact with black lives matter (the organisation or individuals from said organisation) in the last 15 months, it's more than likely to be:

George Floyd
Civil Unrest in the USA
Protests in the UK
Statues being torn down
Taking the Knee
The recent shooting of a UK BLM member

I don’t think i was (i was saying inextricably link with rhe Black lives Matter global organisation that are being accused of Marxism which you seem to agree with me on) but anyway…

I agree with your second part - different meanings to different people.

[chrispmartha]

rscott said:

So more like the approach of F1? They're using a simple "End Racism" slogan and drivers can choose to stand or kneel as they see fit.

This is what they do in Rugby League, and some players kneel, no one boos, but, why wouldn’t the booers at the football boo the kneelers in that instance though if kneeling is a sign of supporting BLM?

[ddom]

chrispmartha said:

This is what they do in Rugby League, and some players kneel, no one boos, but, why wouldn’t the booers at the football boo the kneelers in that instance though if kneeling is a sign of supporting BLM?

[ChocolateFrog]

chrispmartha said:

rscott said:

So more like the approach of F1? They're using a simple "End Racism" slogan and drivers can choose to stand or kneel as they see fit.

This is what they do in Rugby League, and some players kneel, no one boos, but, why wouldn’t the booers at the football boo the kneelers in that instance though if kneeling is a sign of supporting BLM?

It's a much better approach.

You genuinely get the feeling the individual has a choice w in the matter, which gives it more authenticity.

With the football you just know some of the players aren't comfortable with it but dare not contradict the dogma.

Plus End Racism has more of a Kick it Out vibe than a BLM vibe.

[survivalist]

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

chrispmartha said:

survivalist said:

So you’re now agreeing that the majority of people associate taking the knee with BLM. I guess that’s some progress.

In terms of what it means, I think to most it means an activist organisation associated with civil unrest in the USA and a series of protests in U.K. cities in 2020. Also the death of George Floyd.

Ive never said otherwise.

I think you’d be right with the death of George Floyd not so sure about the activist organisation.

Earlier on this thread you seemed to be pretty sure the two weren't inexorably linked. Clearly just an opinion, but most people associate words and phrases with the things grey have had most exposure to. Given that most British people won't have had much physical contact with black lives matter (the organisation or individuals from said organisation) in the last 15 months, it's more than likely to be:

George Floyd
Civil Unrest in the USA
Protests in the UK
Statues being torn down
Taking the Knee
The recent shooting of a UK BLM member

I don’t think i was (i was saying inextricably link with rhe Black lives Matter global organisation that are being accused of Marxism which you seem to agree with me on) but anyway…

I agree with your second part - different meanings to different people.

I see your point. But if a group of people, supported or motivated by a professional organisation, decide to take a gesture that the majority of people associate with particular political movement, should they not consider all aspects of the political movement?

It’s a bit like saying that I joined the KKK/Nazis/BNP for the barbecues and bingo evenings - no one told me they stood for an extreme politics agenda.

[JeffreyD]

Anyway - I've been in touch with my mate at St Georges's Park and have arranged for 40 black leather gloves to be sent over.


They are going to learn from the complaints and follow Tommie Smith's lead during the national anthems.

Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

[chrispmartha]

ddom said:

chrispmartha said:

This is what they do in Rugby League, and some players kneel, no one boos, but, why wouldn’t the booers at the football boo the kneelers in that instance though if kneeling is a sign of supporting BLM?

What’s the roll of the eyes for.

If taking the Knee is intrinsically linked to the BLM group that the booers were booing why wouldn’t they boo the players that take the knee in the example above?