The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
PRTVR said:
Not quite, many moons ago I was on a cruise chatting to a Canadian guy who designed and built power stations, I asked him will they be building wood fired power stations now, we had just commissioned our first in the UK and Canada having lots of trees it seemed logical,
he laughed and explained they had crunched the numbers and the only place it was viable was at the lumber yard using waste products, if you look at the original idea it was to only use waste wood,
he explained that anything else you may as well just use the energy used in harvesting the wood and preparing it, there is very little gain, I asked him what he thought about the UK running them and he said they put it down to the after effects of mad cow disease and laughed .
The problems started when there was not even enough waste wood to feed the monster, the specifications were changed to include sustainable wood,
basically its another export your CO2 production to look and feel good without examining the true cost.
If they don't share numbers then don't listen to their arguments.he laughed and explained they had crunched the numbers and the only place it was viable was at the lumber yard using waste products, if you look at the original idea it was to only use waste wood,
he explained that anything else you may as well just use the energy used in harvesting the wood and preparing it, there is very little gain, I asked him what he thought about the UK running them and he said they put it down to the after effects of mad cow disease and laughed .
The problems started when there was not even enough waste wood to feed the monster, the specifications were changed to include sustainable wood,
basically its another export your CO2 production to look and feel good without examining the true cost.
Wood has around half the energy density of petroleum. Now compare the mass of a tree to the size of the fuel tank of the device to harvest it.
You can find figures for diesel usage of forrestry machines. The answer is that harvesting a hectare of trees will set you back a few hundreds of litres of diesel, but it will yield 150-250 tonnes of logs.
Likewise a truck can carry 30 tonnes of lumber and move it a 1000km with a few hundred litres of diesel. A ship can cross a ocean with a fraction of a % of mass of cargo being burnt in fuel.
There is no way in hell forrestry is going to be a net energy consumer! It might be if you tried to turn the wood into biodiesel or hydrogen, but we are taking about putting it in a furnace.
Whether it is economic is a different question, it is clearly not particularly ecological either.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fuel-consumpti...
pquinn said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
But those pork markets...
And the Cheese... Think of the Cheeeeeeeeze!
I'd pin plenty of blame at the feet of the civil servants not their short term boss; this is a long term problem and it's the monkeys that are really in control not whoever is the organ grinder of the day.And the Cheese... Think of the Cheeeeeeeeze!
If you want to see an epic balls up you can usually find someone behind it with no fear of their job or lifestyle being on the line when they f
k up. 
Talksteer said:
PRTVR said:
Not quite, many moons ago I was on a cruise chatting to a Canadian guy who designed and built power stations, I asked him will they be building wood fired power stations now, we had just commissioned our first in the UK and Canada having lots of trees it seemed logical,
he laughed and explained they had crunched the numbers and the only place it was viable was at the lumber yard using waste products, if you look at the original idea it was to only use waste wood,
he explained that anything else you may as well just use the energy used in harvesting the wood and preparing it, there is very little gain, I asked him what he thought about the UK running them and he said they put it down to the after effects of mad cow disease and laughed .
The problems started when there was not even enough waste wood to feed the monster, the specifications were changed to include sustainable wood,
basically its another export your CO2 production to look and feel good without examining the true cost.
If they don't share numbers then don't listen to their arguments.he laughed and explained they had crunched the numbers and the only place it was viable was at the lumber yard using waste products, if you look at the original idea it was to only use waste wood,
he explained that anything else you may as well just use the energy used in harvesting the wood and preparing it, there is very little gain, I asked him what he thought about the UK running them and he said they put it down to the after effects of mad cow disease and laughed .
The problems started when there was not even enough waste wood to feed the monster, the specifications were changed to include sustainable wood,
basically its another export your CO2 production to look and feel good without examining the true cost.
Wood has around half the energy density of petroleum. Now compare the mass of a tree to the size of the fuel tank of the device to harvest it.
You can find figures for diesel usage of forrestry machines. The answer is that harvesting a hectare of trees will set you back a few hundreds of litres of diesel, but it will yield 150-250 tonnes of logs.
Likewise a truck can carry 30 tonnes of lumber and move it a 1000km with a few hundred litres of diesel. A ship can cross a ocean with a fraction of a % of mass of cargo being burnt in fuel.
There is no way in hell forrestry is going to be a net energy consumer! It might be if you tried to turn the wood into biodiesel or hydrogen, but we are taking about putting it in a furnace.
Whether it is economic is a different question, it is clearly not particularly ecological either.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Fuel-consumpti...
As with all data it can be manipulated to tell a picture, I noticed that Canada was importing wood products to burn from Germany and wished I had his email to ask had the mad cow disease taken hold in Canada.
Originally it was waste wood that was to be used for a reason, partly due to the cost of processing it also its intrinsic value as lumber, that's all gone out of the window now, due to a lack of waste wood along with the difficulties in dealing with it,
PRTVR said:
I was only repeating what I was told from an expert, if you have to cut the wood then chip it all consumes energy, transporting it to the port also moving it onto the ship again and off again uses more and finally transport from the port to power stations and moving it into storage and out yet more energy consumed, if we were to go the whole hog we should account for the energy used to make the machines in the whole process, it would be interesting to see the whole cost.
As with all data it can be manipulated to tell a picture, I noticed that Canada was importing wood products to burn from Germany and wished I had his email to ask had the mad cow disease taken hold in Canada.
Originally it was waste wood that was to be used for a reason, partly due to the cost of processing it also its intrinsic value as lumber, that's all gone out of the window now, due to a lack of waste wood along with the difficulties in dealing with it,
To be fair, a few years ago we were digging up coal in Colombia/Australia/Russia, transporting it by rail for hundreds of miles, loading it onto ships, then moving it by rail from the ship to the power station, which in some cases was hauls from places like Hunterston to Drax/Ratcliffe etc.As with all data it can be manipulated to tell a picture, I noticed that Canada was importing wood products to burn from Germany and wished I had his email to ask had the mad cow disease taken hold in Canada.
Originally it was waste wood that was to be used for a reason, partly due to the cost of processing it also its intrinsic value as lumber, that's all gone out of the window now, due to a lack of waste wood along with the difficulties in dealing with it,
We do at least have some waste wood stations, e.g. Stevens Croft near Lockerbie, which is next to a sawmill. Hopefully that's only burning waste.
alangla said:
PRTVR said:
I was only repeating what I was told from an expert, if you have to cut the wood then chip it all consumes energy, transporting it to the port also moving it onto the ship again and off again uses more and finally transport from the port to power stations and moving it into storage and out yet more energy consumed, if we were to go the whole hog we should account for the energy used to make the machines in the whole process, it would be interesting to see the whole cost.
As with all data it can be manipulated to tell a picture, I noticed that Canada was importing wood products to burn from Germany and wished I had his email to ask had the mad cow disease taken hold in Canada.
Originally it was waste wood that was to be used for a reason, partly due to the cost of processing it also its intrinsic value as lumber, that's all gone out of the window now, due to a lack of waste wood along with the difficulties in dealing with it,
To be fair, a few years ago we were digging up coal in Colombia/Australia/Russia, transporting it by rail for hundreds of miles, loading it onto ships, then moving it by rail from the ship to the power station, which in some cases was hauls from places like Hunterston to Drax/Ratcliffe etc.As with all data it can be manipulated to tell a picture, I noticed that Canada was importing wood products to burn from Germany and wished I had his email to ask had the mad cow disease taken hold in Canada.
Originally it was waste wood that was to be used for a reason, partly due to the cost of processing it also its intrinsic value as lumber, that's all gone out of the window now, due to a lack of waste wood along with the difficulties in dealing with it,
We do at least have some waste wood stations, e.g. Stevens Croft near Lockerbie, which is next to a sawmill. Hopefully that's only burning waste.
PRTVR said:
Couldn't agree more, but the reason we are burning wood is to save the planet, perhaps the savings are not what we are led to believe .
Absolutely. I’ve always thought what went on at Drax with North American wood, waste or not, being burnt was insane. Personally I’d restrict Biomass to the aforementioned Stevens Croft type waste example or used cooking oil, council garden & food rubbish type things. Anything else is silly. Oh, and ban log burners in urban areas, the localised particulate emissions they produce are awful.Homes face winter power cuts in worst-case scenario, says National Grid
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63155827
British households could lose power for up to three hours at a time this winter if gas supplies run extremely low, National Grid has warned.
The company said it was an "unlikely" scenario but added that supply interruptions were a possibility if the energy crisis escalated.
Cuts would probably occur at peak times and customers would be warned in advance. .............continues
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63155827
British households could lose power for up to three hours at a time this winter if gas supplies run extremely low, National Grid has warned.
The company said it was an "unlikely" scenario but added that supply interruptions were a possibility if the energy crisis escalated.
Cuts would probably occur at peak times and customers would be warned in advance. .............continues
With the current gas situation and the sabotage of the Nordsteam pipelines is converting a coal power station to gas wise?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-631...
"Northern Ireland could face electricity blackouts in 2024 and 2025 unless action is taken, the grid operator has warned."
"SONI says the issue centres on Kilroot power station and environmental permits which limit its operating hours. The organisation says it is working with the Department for the Economy and the regulator to address the issue. Kilroot is currently a coal-fired power station but is due to convert to gas turbine generation over the next few years.
Coal-fired power stations are effectively being regulated out of existence for environmental reasons "
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-631...
"Northern Ireland could face electricity blackouts in 2024 and 2025 unless action is taken, the grid operator has warned."
"SONI says the issue centres on Kilroot power station and environmental permits which limit its operating hours. The organisation says it is working with the Department for the Economy and the regulator to address the issue. Kilroot is currently a coal-fired power station but is due to convert to gas turbine generation over the next few years.
Coal-fired power stations are effectively being regulated out of existence for environmental reasons "
I do remember that some of the CCGT plants were fitted for but not with the ability to burn oil instead of natural gas.
I'm surprised given the many months warning we have had and the relatively low number of actual gas turbines that need modification that we aren't planning to use oil which is much easier to store or move than natural gas.
1GW of CCGT would need about 3,000 tonnes of oil a day, you could supply, via train or even at a push by lorry.
I'm surprised given the many months warning we have had and the relatively low number of actual gas turbines that need modification that we aren't planning to use oil which is much easier to store or move than natural gas.
1GW of CCGT would need about 3,000 tonnes of oil a day, you could supply, via train or even at a push by lorry.
SmoothCriminal said:
If there is Coal capacity we should be firing those up not risking fking blackouts where people cant heat there home or cook dinner for some green agenda when China is building them left right and centre.
Yes but think of the warm feeling our politicians and green activists get from saving the planet. Anyway to harness that heat?king blackouts where people cant heat there home or cook dinner for some green agenda when China is building them left right and centre.
Cold said:
It wasn't that long ago that the grid had plenty of spare capacity to cope with everyone buying an electric car in the future. Now we're on the cusp of having regular three hour blackouts should you dare to boil the kettle.
Well the facts have changed, for now, and when facts change, your opinion should also. The prior discussions on capacity for EV conversions did not consider a gas shortage to this extent. pghstochaj said:
Cold said:
It wasn't that long ago that the grid had plenty of spare capacity to cope with everyone buying an electric car in the future. Now we're on the cusp of having regular three hour blackouts should you dare to boil the kettle.
Well the facts have changed, for now, and when facts change, your opinion should also. The prior discussions on capacity for EV conversions did not consider a gas shortage to this extent. Cold said:
It wasn't that long ago that the grid had plenty of spare capacity to cope with everyone buying an electric car in the future. Now we're on the cusp of having regular three hour blackouts should you dare to boil the kettle.
Eh?The grid still has sufficient generation capacity, when there's enough gas for the generators. That's an entirely seperate issue to what was discussed.
We're also not on the cusp. It's a scenario, and one that is unlikely, but one that is considered nonetheless. Boiling the kettle won't trigger a blackout in this instance. The blackouts would be scheduled events intended to reduce the need for gas generation and would be dependent on things like how much nuclear was online and how much of the wind was generating.
PushedDover said:
Quote
worse case scenario
Not probable. Not forecasted. But media whipped worse case
Yet, posters above, haters, troglodytes all will grasp with double hands and more the ‘worse case scenario’ because headlines matter.
I suggest you read it. The phrase “worse case scenario” is not used. There is a base case and two sensitivities. The sensitivities are sensible “what if” cases. worse case scenario
Not probable. Not forecasted. But media whipped worse case
Yet, posters above, haters, troglodytes all will grasp with double hands and more the ‘worse case scenario’ because headlines matter.
Cold said:
pghstochaj said:
Cold said:
It wasn't that long ago that the grid had plenty of spare capacity to cope with everyone buying an electric car in the future. Now we're on the cusp of having regular three hour blackouts should you dare to boil the kettle.
Well the facts have changed, for now, and when facts change, your opinion should also. The prior discussions on capacity for EV conversions did not consider a gas shortage to this extent. Hence the facts changed.
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