Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Vanden Saab]

cheesejunkie said:

Murph7355 said:

A government shouldn't be allowed to cede powers without direct recourse to the citizens - a referendum. The powers don't belong to the govt, they are on loan from us, the citizens. They are not theirs to cede.

That’s a viewpoint, not a legally enforceable principal. It also competes with the principal of parliamentary sovereignty and representation. One I’m guessing you’ve defended.

I tend to agree it should be in a manifesto, I don’t agree it should be subjected to a referendum. That would be lunacy.

The concept of ceding is a whole other can of worms but powers are ceded in trade negotiations all the time and meh. That’s not a strong argument.

Not really, while agreements may be made in FTAs, new rules would have to be agreed between the various parties. That is very different to allowing a different parliament to make new rules that have to be followed.
I can understand that you cannot see the difference though.

[cheesejunkie]

Murph7355 said:

No they aren't, generally. And if a trade deal includes that, then it shouldn't be signed without us being asked.

It doesn't compete with representation at all. The representatives are there to represent, not give away the power temporarily loaned to them.

GEs are not single issue votes. They are not good barometers for determining the fate of single issues.

And as for defending parliamentary sovereignty...nuanced. Our system is broken and needs change. It's needed it for quite some time - the two party system we have is not fit for purpose.

That’s the annoyance for you and me. We agree the two party system is flawed. We’ll not agree on referendums being the solution. I’m not entirely against you Murph but if they’re there to represent then you have already ceded power to your representative. They can have real power or be a non entity. Which would you prefer?

It’s mental wk to some extent, parliament can do lots of things you’d seemingly prefer they couldn’t.

[cheesejunkie]

Vanden Saab said:

Not really, while agreements may be made in FTAs, new rules would have to be agreed between the various parties. That is very different to allowing a different parliament to make new rules that have to be followed.
I can understand that you cannot see the difference though.

Put that way yes, but that’s not the way it works. Framing is important. I’ll avoid returning the insult.

You’re arguing semantics and maybe so am I. Ok the uk government has to agree. It does cede control when agreeing trade deals. We’re not an island (joke). It in no way shape or ever form has had to be put to the electorate as a specific issue but running in it is fine.

[wisbech]

Murph7355 said:

A government shouldn't be allowed to cede powers without direct recourse to the citizens - a referendum. The powers don't belong to the govt, they are on loan from us, the citizens. They are not theirs to cede.

How in your view then should a referendum on (say) Scottish independence or Irish unification go? Should it involve all UK citizens (as UK govt is ceding power) or just those in Scotland and NI?

Note that the largest cessions of power by the UK government historically had no such referendums, e.g. Statute of Westminster when UK parliament gave up the power to legislate for colonies/ dominions.

"No Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to a Dominion as part of the law of that Dominion, unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested, and consented to, the enactment thereof"

[blueg33]

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

[Skeptisk]

So it seems that leaving the EU has led to our rivers being full of st and no way for citizens to force the government to do something about it

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/20...

I am sure for arch brexiters this is seen as positive as all those pesky environmental rules eat into business profits

[Mrr T]

Deesee said:

Mrr T said:

Deesee said:

Largest trading partner is the United States at 310b Germany is the next at 160b, there’s no ‘new’ friction there for the USA, goods of European Origin/UK Origin are tariff free between UK and EU.

We also maintain a large trading surplus with our largest trading partner (& are also are largest investor & for Us the country where we send the most investment) and have entered into talks with the individual states to promote free trade with individual states ie Texas, the Texan economy is around the size of Italys so would stand as a top 10 GNI ranked ‘economy’ by its self, it’s quite the win especially with our expertise in O&G, wind and space technology.

I used the word partner not country because in trade terms the EU is a single market. Obviously there is no new friction on trade with the US but there is with the EU.

As for the partner agreements with individual states other than a trip for the TS they have no value.

I used partner too, largest aggregated over import/export is USA, not EU factor in investment UK to USA and USA to UK and this is substantially higher. This is on WTO terms.

Anyway, I believe it’s 5 more states then it goes to congress..

& we don’t deal with the EU anymore, we deal with individual countries that may be have EC oversight and are bound by their regulations within the EU-UK trade agreement.

& remember UK exports have grown well to the EU and faster to the rest of the world since the Brexit vote.

You seem to be struggling with some numbers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-...

UK exports
US 21.9%
EU/EEA 38.7%

UK imports
US 13.5%
EU/EEA 48.9%

All trade is on WTO terms. In addition, while there is no FTA with the US there are other treaty covering trade including a mutual recognition in some products.

It does not matter if the state agreements to Congress. Trade agreements are a federal matter.

What do we deal with individual sT countries on? Trade matters? Absolutely rubbish. Trade agreements are a EU competency.

[bad company]

Skeptisk said:

So it seems that leaving the EU has led to our rivers being full of st and no way for citizens to force the government to do something about it

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/20...

I am sure for arch brexiters this is seen as positive as all those pesky environmental rules eat into business profits

There’s no excuse for not looking after our rivers. Biased article blaming Brexit though:-

We have found that, while the relevant law here is broadly sound, it is simply not being implemented effectively.

[732NM]

Mrr T said:

You seem to be struggling with some numbers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-...

UK exports
US 21.9%
EU/EEA 38.7%

UK imports
US 13.5%
EU/EEA 48.9%

All trade is on WTO terms. In addition, while there is no FTA with the US there are other treaty covering trade including a mutual recognition in some products.

It does not matter if the state agreements to Congress. Trade agreements are a federal matter.

What do we deal with individual sT countries on? Trade matters? Absolutely rubbish. Trade agreements are a EU competency.

Services is the UK major area of export, there is no single market in the EU for services, it is the individual country that legislates there.

[Vanden Saab]

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

A large chunk, you have not read the report have you.

report said:

The report shows that the EU Exit has not caused the recent spike in medicine shortages, but it is likely to significantly weaken the UK’s ability to respond to them

Meanwhile in Ireland. They are using unlicensed medicines to solve the problem.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/27/med...

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-unlicensed...

[Mrr T]

732NM said:

Mrr T said:

You seem to be struggling with some numbers.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-...

UK exports
US 21.9%
EU/EEA 38.7%

UK imports
US 13.5%
EU/EEA 48.9%

All trade is on WTO terms. In addition, while there is no FTA with the US there are other treaty covering trade including a mutual recognition in some products.

It does not matter if the state agreements to Congress. Trade agreements are a federal matter.

What do we deal with individual sT countries on? Trade matters? Absolutely rubbish. Trade agreements are a EU competency.

Services is the UK major area of export, there is no single market in the EU for services, it is the individual country that legislates there.

Correction there is no single market for all services. I cannot comment on other service sectors but in FS some parts where regulated at an EU level other by country. In some ways it made no difference. I worked in custody which is regulated by country but passport meant we could sell throughout the EU/EEA.

[Mrr T]

Murph7355 said:

A government shouldn't be allowed to cede powers without direct recourse to the citizens - a referendum. The powers don't belong to the govt, they are on loan from us, the citizens. They are not theirs to cede.

Come on that's just not possible. Let take the TCA. This is a complex and lengthy agreement which ceded many powers. These included for example commitments to implement international standards in some area when they are introduced, limits on state aid, NI, it even gives EU nationals some rights in the UK which UK citizens do not have.

90% of the public would not understand or have time to understand the whole treaty. You really want to put that to a referendum?

[bad company]

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

Nice one Remoaner, great bit of misinformation.

Do you blame the recent wet weather on Brexit?

[Vanden Saab]

bad company said:

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

Nice one Remoaner, great bit of misinformation.

Do you blame the recent wet weather on Brexit?

Yesterday someone blamed the average age of cars increasing on Brexit. So give it time.

[bloomen]

I very much liked this analogy from a Youtube comment -

'watching Brexit unfold has been like seeing your elderly father move out of a perfectly nice retirement home so he could hit the dating scene. You saw the delusions, but Dad still thinks he's all that and a slice of cheese.'

[Mortarboard]

Vanden Saab said:

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

A large chunk, you have not read the report have you.

report said:

The report shows that the EU Exit has not caused the recent spike in medicine shortages, but it is likely to significantly weaken the UK’s ability to respond to them

Meanwhile in Ireland. They are using unlicensed medicines to solve the problem.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/27/med...

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-unlicensed...

To be fair, most pharma (ingredients, not just final point of use meds) are a covid hangover. All the big boys thought they could flex to making flu meds, including vaccines. Small run meds and API's got nixed in the interim.

For context though, "unlicensed" does not mean "not approved". It's generally alternatively sourced generics. Aspirin vs Anadin fir example. In most cases, there's no significant differences.
But small run meds for rate diseases may not come back at all- especially after licensing changes.

M.

Edited by Mortarboard on Thursday 9th May 14:31

[blueg33]

Vanden Saab said:

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

A large chunk, you have not read the report have you.

report said:

The report shows that the EU Exit has not caused the recent spike in medicine shortages, but it is likely to significantly weaken the UK’s ability to respond to them

Meanwhile in Ireland. They are using unlicensed medicines to solve the problem.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/27/med...

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-unlicensed...

Of course I have read the report here are some key takeaways for you.

The report highlights Brexit as a significant factor, likely to “significantly weaken” the country’s ability to manage supply chain issues

Brexit’s unique contribution to the UK’s woes: smoother product flow across EU borders has been disrupted

Brexit has also contributed to difficulties by lowering the value of sterling and removing the UK from EU supply chains.

The report sheds light on another issue: the UK’s slower drug approval process compared to the EU. among the drugs authorized in Europe in 2023, 56 were later approved in the UK. Eight remain unapproved, while only four received faster approval.

The UK has intensified its reliance on migration following Brexit as a source for both health and social care workers. An expansion in social care workers in England is entirely due to migration from outside the EU; more EU and UK staff have left than joined the social care workforce.

Life science and medicine regulation in Great Britain is now often lagging behind such regulation in the EU

Medicine authorisations for products that the EU approves centrally are typically slower in Great Britain than they would be if it were still a member state.


But you and others think Brexit isn't a factor and make facetious comments about the weather rather than understand what Nuffields findings are.

[S600BSB]

blueg33 said:

Vanden Saab said:

blueg33 said:

Sky news reporting this morning on major drug shortages. Attributing a large chunk of the blame on Brexit with a Nuffield think tank saying Brexit is hampering our ability to deal with the problem. 79 percent of pharmacy staff say health is being put at risk with shortages including drugs for diabetes and epilepsy.

Nice one leavers, great decision

A large chunk, you have not read the report have you.

report said:

The report shows that the EU Exit has not caused the recent spike in medicine shortages, but it is likely to significantly weaken the UK’s ability to respond to them

Meanwhile in Ireland. They are using unlicensed medicines to solve the problem.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/04/27/med...

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-unlicensed...

Of course I have read the report here are some key takeaways for you.

The report highlights Brexit as a significant factor, likely to “significantly weaken” the country’s ability to manage supply chain issues

Brexit’s unique contribution to the UK’s woes: smoother product flow across EU borders has been disrupted

Brexit has also contributed to difficulties by lowering the value of sterling and removing the UK from EU supply chains.

The report sheds light on another issue: the UK’s slower drug approval process compared to the EU. among the drugs authorized in Europe in 2023, 56 were later approved in the UK. Eight remain unapproved, while only four received faster approval.

The UK has intensified its reliance on migration following Brexit as a source for both health and social care workers. An expansion in social care workers in England is entirely due to migration from outside the EU; more EU and UK staff have left than joined the social care workforce.

Life science and medicine regulation in Great Britain is now often lagging behind such regulation in the EU

Medicine authorisations for products that the EU approves centrally are typically slower in Great Britain than they would be if it were still a member state.


But you and others think Brexit isn't a factor and make facetious comments about the weather rather than understand what Nuffields findings are.

Spot on.

[Vanden Saab]

blueg33 said:

Of course I have read the report here are some key takeaways for you.

The report highlights Brexit as a significant factor, likely to “significantly weaken” the country’s ability to manage supply chain issues

Brexit’s unique contribution to the UK’s woes: smoother product flow across EU borders has been disrupted

Brexit has also contributed to difficulties by lowering the value of sterling and removing the UK from EU supply chains.

The report sheds light on another issue: the UK’s slower drug approval process compared to the EU. among the drugs authorized in Europe in 2023, 56 were later approved in the UK. Eight remain unapproved, while only four received faster approval.

The UK has intensified its reliance on migration following Brexit as a source for both health and social care workers. An expansion in social care workers in England is entirely due to migration from outside the EU; more EU and UK staff have left than joined the social care workforce.

Life science and medicine regulation in Great Britain is now often lagging behind such regulation in the EU

Medicine authorisations for products that the EU approves centrally are typically slower in Great Britain than they would be if it were still a member state.


But you and others think Brexit isn't a factor and make facetious comments about the weather rather than understand what Nuffields findings are.

Ah ha.
Likely is doing a lot of heavy lifting
Smoother product flow, you know the EU has had to take steps to prevent EU countries stockpiling?
Removing the UK from supply chains bearing in mind the supply problems it has hit Ireland harder and they are in the EU.
It does not say how much later but as it was only for 2023 probably days or weeks and no comment on medicines approved in the UK but not in the EU. Which is strange don't you think.
Not sure what social care workers have to do with medicines but may be you do
Lagging behind but no figures as to how much. A few days would be irrelevant.
All in all I guess Nuffields 'brexit lead' has to stay relevant somehow.

[Mortarboard]

Vanden Saab said:

Removing the UK from supply chains bearing in mind the supply problems it has hit Ireland harder and they are in the EU.

Citation needed

Doubly so, as part of the brexit deal had to be amended to allow NI to source meds from ROI, due to the difficulties obtaining them in GB....

M.