How many Romanian/Bulgarian migrants are you predicting?

[MX7]

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.
Does that sound too much like commonsense?

No, far from it.

If we require an additional workforce we should look overseas if the native population can't fulfil the positions. We shouldn't open our doors and then cross our fingers that it'll all work out.

Companies don't, generally, hire people and then try to find work for them. They find that they need additional staff, so they look for them. It's much the same with the UK.

It might all work out fine, but it might not. What happens if the worst happens, and why lay ourselves open to the possibility? Even Eric Pickles, when asked how many immigrants we should expect, said that "I know it's a bloody mistake to tell the truth but... the truth is nobody really knows."

I don't see any common sense in this, exactly the reverse in my opinion.

[blindswelledrat]

I've already stated that I agree you shouldn't be allowed access to our welfare system without working so our thinking isn't that far apart.
If you removed that right, then the only people who came from any country would be ones who wanted to work. ROmania/Bulgaria are no different to any other in that respect.

[Digga]

blindswelledrat said:

Who knows? Why assume the worst?
Personally I don't think for a moment that ROmania hasn't got it's fair share of hard working people who want nothing more than opportunity to make their own living in a country with a better economy than their own.
I certainly don't think your assumptions are a reason not to try. Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.
Does that sound too much like commonsense?

Figures from another thread talk of a third of all 80 odd thousand Romanians arriving in the UK having been arrested by the Met (let alone arrests by other forces) is a huge number. Logistically, how to round up and send all of them back - plus their dependants - and surely it would be simpler, henceforth, to vet those prior to them event attempting to gain entry?

[superkartracer]

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-...

British taxpayers are already paying more than £90million a year to fund the 2,400 Eastern Europeans currently in jail, at a rate of £38,000 per prisoner.

[blindswelledrat]

MX7 said:

No, far from it.

If we require an additional workforce we should look overseas if the native population can't fulfil the positions. We shouldn't open our doors and then cross our fingers that it'll all work out.

Companies don't, generally, hire people and then try to find work for them. They find that they need additional staff, so they look for them. It's much the same with the UK.

Yes, if the economy could be boiled down so simplistically then I would probably agree.
It's not that black and white though is it?
For example- take our high unemployment figures:
I would argue that if you took out the people who didn't want to work or weren't prepared to do menial jobs, unemployment in the South East is close to zero. Those types of jobs are not sufficient to lure the unemployed nationals from other parts of the country but they are sufficient to lure people from the poorer parts of Europe. There are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of low paid jobs in the South East and no one to fill them. Every one filled is an improvement to the economy. None of them filled with a foreigner is depriving a UK national of a job.

[blindswelledrat]

superkartracer said:

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-...

British taxpayers are already paying more than £90million a year to fund the 2,400 Eastern Europeans currently in jail, at a rate of £38,000 per prisoner.

Big deal. Select that and ignore the other things posted that show immigrants are a net contributer.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.
Does that sound too much like commonsense?

No it does not and very surprised you think it does.


Common sense if to check people's history 'before' they come.Criminal conviction = No, never worked in your life = No etc
Open borders when country is booming= people will put up with it
Open borders when country is in debt = moronic

The long term plan of the EU lot is a United States Europe in order to compete with the emerging powers, whilst this may well be the a good end game, it is a long way off and cannot be implemented in this ludicrous way.

[superkartracer]

And it takes the Tax contributions from fifty low paid workers to cover the 40k bill for one crim in prison.

[Mermaid]

superkartracer said:

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-...

British taxpayers are already paying more than £90million a year to fund the 2,400 Eastern Europeans currently in jail, at a rate of £38,000 per prisoner.

Has any criminal been sent back so far? Economic migrants become a permanent feature.

Wonder what the Polish people think about these new migrants? Does it affect them?

[blindswelledrat]

Digga said:

Figures from another thread talk of a third of all 80 odd thousand Romanians arriving in the UK having been arrested by the Met (let alone arrests by other forces) is a huge number. Logistically, how to round up and send all of them back - plus their dependants - and surely it would be simpler, henceforth, to vet those prior to them event attempting to gain entry?

Agree, but it appears those figures were misleading and counted multiple offences as multiple people?
Not that it excuses it. I'm just reserving judgment assuming that the sample of people who are already here are not here for employment reasons and the average person who comes over here when they are allowed to work unrestricted will be a different type of person.
I could be wrong and we'll wait and see - I just don't know why the nation as a whole will be less likely to want to work than other Eastern Europeans that have come over legally already

[andymadmak]

blindswelledrat said:

Big deal. Select that and ignore the other things posted that show immigrants are a net contributer.

Slightly O/T, but has it been conclusively shown that immigrants ARE net contributors? I read the report a week or so ago that made that claim, but even I noticed that the authors were "selective" about the time period they presented. Moreover I read somewhere else (was it the Telegraph?) that the report was subsequently comprehensively debunked.

[superkartracer]

blindswelledrat said:

superkartracer said:

blindswelledrat said:

Let them in, send the criminals back and keep the normal people.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378232/Immigrant-...

British taxpayers are already paying more than £90million a year to fund the 2,400 Eastern Europeans currently in jail, at a rate of £38,000 per prisoner.

Big deal. Select that and ignore the other things posted that show immigrants are a net contributer.

Hows this for a Big Deal then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

The criminal enterprises cost the country more than £100 million a day

[blindswelledrat]

porridge said:

No it does not and very surprised you think it does.


Common sense if to check people's history 'before' they come.Criminal conviction = No, never worked in your life = No etc
Open borders when country is booming= people will put up with it
Open borders when country is in debt = moronic

The long term plan of the EU lot is a United States Europe in order to compete with the emerging powers, whilst this may well be the a good end game, it is a long way off and cannot be implemented in this ludicrous way.

I think we already do refuse them with a criminal record in most circumstances. You just misunderstood my point I think

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/gui...

[odyssey2200]

andymadmak said:

blindswelledrat said:

Big deal. Select that and ignore the other things posted that show immigrants are a net contributer.

Slightly O/T, but has it been conclusively shown that immigrants ARE net contributors? I read the report a week or so ago that made that claim, but even I noticed that the authors were "selective" about the time period they presented. Moreover I read somewhere else (was it the Telegraph?) that the report was subsequently comprehensively debunked.

It's all bill, really.
Anyone in a job is a net contributor regardless of origin or nationality.

If we had less immigration we would free up vacancies and could start to reduce benefits for those who see them as a lifestyle choice.

I say this as an unemployed bloke.

Edited by odyssey2200 on Tuesday 12th November 13:24

[blindswelledrat]

superkartracer said:

Hows this for a Big Deal then -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

The criminal enterprises cost the country more than £100 million a day

So the Romanians are responsible for ALL organised and cyber crime in the UK now are they?
That's quite a compelling argument.

[porridge]

andymadmak said:

Slightly O/T, but has it been conclusively shown that immigrants ARE net contributors? I read the report a week or so ago that made that claim, but even I noticed that the authors were "selective" about the time period they presented. Moreover I read somewhere else (was it the Telegraph?) that the report was subsequently comprehensively debunked.

As many do low paid jobs, they still get top benefits so would be surprised if net contributors. Overhead costs of the increased demand on existing services also need to be taken into account rather than just income- aside form the schools/health core god knows how many interpreters are needed, legal bills paid, multi lingual docs churned out and so on.

[porridge]

blindswelledrat said:

I think we already do refuse them with a criminal record in most circumstances. You just misunderstood my point I think

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/policyandlaw/gui...

Thats visa application rules, eu migrants don't need a visa.

[Mermaid]

blindswelledrat said:

Agree, but it appears those figures were misleading and counted multiple offences as multiple people?
Not that it excuses it. I'm just reserving judgment assuming that the sample of people who are already here are not here for employment reasons and the average person who comes over here when they are allowed to work unrestricted will be a different type of person.
I could be wrong and we'll wait and see - I just don't know why the nation as a whole will be less likely to want to work than other Eastern Europeans that have come over legally already

You are being rather selective about numbers, but whichever you slice/dice it, the evidence is there. So far, this group has not rewarded its hosts, like say the Poles have.

[blindswelledrat]

porridge said:

andymadmak said:

Slightly O/T, but has it been conclusively shown that immigrants ARE net contributors? I read the report a week or so ago that made that claim, but even I noticed that the authors were "selective" about the time period they presented. Moreover I read somewhere else (was it the Telegraph?) that the report was subsequently comprehensively debunked.

As many do low paid jobs, they still get top benefits so would be surprised if net contributors. Overhead costs of the increased demand on existing services also need to be taken into account rather than just income- aside form the schools/health core god knows how many interpreters are needed, legal bills paid, multi lingual docs churned out and so on.

Just google it for Christ sakes.
Instead of ignoring the links that don't fit in with your preconceptions, actually educate yourself.
Of course it's not black and white and it's an impossible figure to come up with - but the most recent reports indicate that immigrants are net contributors. Believe it or not the people who have done them are much cleverer than your or I and did actually think about the things you did.

[Mermaid]

blindswelledrat said:

Just google it for Christ sakes.
Instead of ignoring the links that don't fit in with your preconceptions, actually educate yourself.
Of course it's not black and white and it's an impossible figure to come up with - but the most recent reports indicate that immigrants are net contributors. Believe it or not the people who have done them are much cleverer than your or I and did actually think about the things you did.

Sir Andrew Green of the pressure group Migration Watch said the report had "been spun".

"We've had roughly four million immigrants under the previous government - two-thirds of those were from outside the European Union," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

He said the report found that, "since 1995, they have made a negative contribution overall".

He added: "So the verdict for non-EU is that the benefit to the exchequer is minimal or negative."

He accepted that "if you take the whole of the EU", the benefit was "clearly positive".

But Sir Andrew said this would be expected "because you are including German engineers, French fashion designers and - as it's the European Economic Area - even Swiss bankers [sic]".

"The real issue for the future is the very large numbers of low-paid immigrants from eastern Europe," he said.

He added: "The report looks backwards but doesn't look forwards.

"The professor's report does not take into account - no doubt for good reason - future health costs as migrants get older nor the pension bill, which is huge."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467