Uber are getting shirty

[markcoznottz]

Most Uber cars seem to have stickers/ permanent decals on the cars, meaning they are self employed but technically in disguised employment , this is no different to what's been happening in other cab companies for years, but Uber is just bigger. HMRC have shown varying levels of concern for this over the years, they might be quite startled just how much money Uber is throwing around though, HMRC like people to know who's boss.

[rxe]

drainbrain said:

They'd have to do it in a way that siphoned off their cut because what they certainly won't be doing under any circumstances is depending on drivers to bring it in.

App hire fee or similar. Having taken over 100 uber cabs in the last 6 months, I would say:

- the drivers all think the system is better than minicabbing
- a lot of them are ex minicab drivers
- the cars are far less knackered than most minicabs I've been in
- in the one case I had a problem (driver started the trip without actually picking me up), Uber support sorted it in about an hour

It's absolutely the future, I assume they are smart enough to sort this and continue. These days I won't take a Black Cab in London as a point of principle.

[Kolbenkopp]

Don said:

Uber and Volvo have just announced a joint £250m project to create a fleet of driverless vehicles for Uber. They're doing it.

Interesting, thanks! Might as well get the ball rolling while their stuff is worth something. I'm still sceptical though. Not knowing any details about the JV deal, but it would surprise me if Volvo would hand over any self-driving car IP as part of the agreement.

So best case, uber will end up with access to a self-driving fleet of Volvos. Is that going to help? With regulators? Existing laws aren't ready to deal with self-driving cars, let alone self-driving hire cars. And all major car manufacturers are working on the same tech.

None of the big shops needs uber to finance the R&D. And they don't need uber to match a passenger to an available car. Any self-respecting first semester IT guy can code something that does that.

IMVHO they are just typical bullst vendors. No real assets of any value, but very loud while the VC money lasts. It's anyone's guess when they will go the way of Myspace. Mine: they will be history before 2020.

[audidoody]

I took an Uber from Soho to N10 last night. The fare was £15 compared with the £25 plus tip a black cab would charge. The driver was quite amiable and we were talking about the court ruling. He said none of the drivers he knew want to be employees of Uber.

He also said there are now 60,000 Uber drivers in London (SIXTY THOUSAND!!!) and there are more joining all the time compared with around 21,000* black cabs .

No wonder the black cab trade is stting itself.

• source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_carriage

[hunton69]

audidoody said:

I took an Uber from Soho to N10 last night. The fare was £15 compared with the £25 plus tip a black cab would charge. The driver was quite amiable and we were talking about the court ruling. He said none of the drivers he knew want to be employees of Uber.

He also said there are now 60,000 Uber drivers in London (SIXTY THOUSAND!!!) and there are more joining all the time compared with around 21,000* black cabs .

No wonder the black cab trade is stting itself.

• source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hackney_carriage

There is no where near 60,000 driving in London. What Uber is doing though is there are thousands Licenced by London working in other towns around the country. An example is Watford no operators Licence but London Licenced cars operating illegally.

I know of 2 councils that refused Licences to Uber Oxford and Reading. Uber have the right to appeal this in a court of Law. They havn't and they wont because there operation does not comply with Licencing conditions. Again however they are using other Licenced cars from other areas.
Luton have basically told me that the reason they gave Uber a licence is because London did. So how the system works is that if a Luton Licenced car parked say 200 meters away from a London Licenced car around Luton airport and a customer requests a car standing closer to the London car. The London car will get the fare. That because the app works by GPS and the drivers accept the booking something that a Taxi can do but not a private hire cannot.
Uber was developed for the Taxi trade.

[hunton69]

drainbrain said:

Quite a few. For instance many (most) drive for other firms too. The owner/drivers also have considerable expenses to meet which are pretty inarguably the legitimate expenses of running their micro-businesses.But the BIG deal (and the big difference with 'normal' private hire) is that they do Uber's jobs and Uber pays them for doing them. Normal private hire provides the opportunity of jobs, but that's not done to swell the number of jobs, it's done to swell the number of drivers, because whereas uber makes its money from the fares, normal ph makes its money from the drivers 'radio' fees. So the firm boosts the jobs to boost the number of drivers which boosts the number of radio fees.

So….a 'normal' minicab firm would be better described as a 'radio hire firm'. Even the accounts are driver money paid to the firm which the firm deducts from the driver's radio fee. Uber really IS a minicab firm which provides a radio rather than hire it and takes the money from punters for providing a service. That's what the DRIVERS (not the firm) do in 'normal' private hire.

But the way the money works to my mind definitely seems more like employment.

Not sure where you got the info about drivers working for other firms.

Any private hire firm that does allow them to work for them as well would be stupid as Uber would be getting there work at the quite times of the day using there own drivers.

Edited by drainbrain on Monday 31st October 23:01

[HerrSchnell]

hunton69 said:

There is no where near 60,000 driving in London. What Uber is doing though is there are thousands Licenced by London working in other towns around the country. An example is Watford no operators Licence but London Licenced cars operating illegally.

I know of 2 councils that refused Licences to Uber Oxford and Reading. Uber have the right to appeal this in a court of Law. They havn't and they wont because there operation does not comply with Licencing conditions. Again however they are using other Licenced cars from other areas.
Luton have basically told me that the reason they gave Uber a licence is because London did. So how the system works is that if a Luton Licenced car parked say 200 meters away from a London Licenced car around Luton airport and a customer requests a car standing closer to the London car. The London car will get the fare. That because the app works by GPS and the drivers accept the booking something that a Taxi can do but not a private hire cannot.
Uber was developed for the Taxi trade.

My question would be what is the problem with that?

Yes some councils gave in to the private hire industry lobbying to refuse an operating licence but they are in the minority and are now not taking enforcement action because they recognise that the licensing regs are outdated and out of step with consumer demands. The only reason for restricting Uber is the protection of the existing business models and I really don't believe that is the role of local authorities.

In fact given the current focus on prevention of child sexual expoloitation within the taxi trade local authorities are missing a trick by being hostile / ambivalent toward Uber. The task of preventing sexual abuse involving taxi drivers would be a lot easier if they spoke to Uber and got them on board with information sharing agreements which would allow access to journey data held by them when Police conduct investigations.

[7795]

Be under no illusion all these cheap rides in an Uber taxi will soon be gone once the black taxi's and all other mini cab firms are gone, or so small they are no longer considered a viable alternative.

Uber is to "it's" drivers what a slum landlord is to their desperate tenants. from talking to various drivers: They will give you a nice new Prius for £200 a week (£200 A WEEK!!!!!!) and if you don't pay them, they take it back. But you can't not pay them because they always owe you money and after they have taken all that you owe, you get the rest. But you're signed up with the car for a minimum time and to get out costs many £k's so you have to keep driving. All the time they can change your commission structure at will as per their T&C's you have signed up to (they have done this 2x already in the last year.

Uber is a cancer to it's employees and eventually when the competition has gone, to us, it's customers.

They use Google maps to get you to where you're going fast and efficiently??? YES, THEY DO AT THE MOMENT BUT SOON THEY WILL BE USING UBER MAPS AND THIS HAS ONE SOLE PURPOSE, TO MAXIMISE PROFIT FOR THE COMPANY. IT'S NOT THERE TO PROVIDE THE MOST EFFICIENT SERVICE FOR CUSTOMERS, IT'S THERE TO MAXIMISE PROFITS FOR UBER.

All that said, do I use them? Yes. Did I begrudge paying £55 - £60 to go 13 miles to Heathrow from Richmond in a black cab? Yes.

It's a quandary!!

[mwstewart]

Black cab or local taxi firm for me every time. I have never used Uber because I prefer to support British business and I never mind paying more to do so.

The Germans are good at it but on the whole we seem a bit short sighted.

[drainbrain]

hunton69 said:

Not sure where you got the info about drivers working for other firms.

Any private hire firm that does allow them to work for them as well would be stupid as Uber would be getting there work at the quite times of the day using there own drivers.

I got the 'info' from drivers on our system who worked the uber system at peaks for the surge fares and occasionally at other times for other reasons. Uber didn't impact on our work at any time. In fact they are a boost to provincial private hire biz.

When über started up here (Glasgow) the local ph owners cartel (ahem, what's that you might ask) was very paranoid. But it was OBVIOUS what would happen next, and it did.

As it turned out, local Enforcement (the council) weren't bothered about drivers working more than one system, after all hacks had carried ph radios for years. They only wanted the oobahmen to use the oobah backflash when they were doing oobah work. Of course that didn't and doesn't happen, but Enforcement aren't going hard on it.

Here's a typical current scenario:

" Hi mate, my name's Ahmed. Ali my cousin's got one of your PDAs and I was hoping to get one too"

"Alright Ahmed my man! Have you ever taxi'd before? How long have you had your badge"?

"To be honest, boss I just got it"

"Oh. Ok. So you don't really know the streets or how it all works. Right. The answer's 'yes' we want to give you a radio. BUT. First of all we'd like you to go join uber. They'll give you a bung (up to £500!!!!!!!) for joining them, and they'll expect you to stay and do a certain amount of work. Stay a few weeks, then come back to us and we'll start you right away".

he he he

Uber really ISN'T the same as private hire. Nor is it exactly the same as the hacks. It's a new version of minicab transport. In the provincial cities they cluster in city centres which traditionally tho' not entirely is the territory of the black hack. Their prices are higher than ph and sometimes higher than hacks too. Their standards of driver and vehicle are exactly the same (think about it) . But having managed to make a fool of themselves in the earliest stages they've now settled down to accept their role. And they certainly have one. They're good for students. And they are also VERY good for the type of tourist or visitor who knows nothing about a strange town or where to even find a minicab but is an existing uber customer for elsewhere.

For a year I kept an eagle eye on 'work levels' and constantly monitored driver activity to see if we were losing either drivers or work to them. Very few of the drivers who either left us or who were encouraged to learn at uber didn't come back to us.Of those, the almost sole reason was that there was a better class of passenger especially on weekend nights. Naturally drivers like the surge fares. But the surge fares are often applied when the amount of work is limited. There's plenty of it (in rush hour, not least because old hands hate rush hour and log off then) but there's only so much of it that can get covered (because of the traffic that the old hands hate).

So all in all I like uber. I'd definitely use them going abroad to any big town or city. As a ph owner they did me nothing but good whether it was as a training ground for newbies or as a way to take the pressure off in rush hour etc. Y'see it's absolutely no problem to have a 'regular' use uber at a surge time. Because their fares are so much higher that nobody's going to change and become regular with them instead.

Nope. London's the place for them. And they need to operate under a different regulatory and enforcement regime or else change to fit the existing ones or else go away. (As they actually did in Edinburgh, tho' they've returned with a better attitude).

Edited by drainbrain on Tuesday 1st November 10:19

[98elise]

hunton69 said:

Not sure where you got the info about drivers working for other firms.

Any private hire firm that does allow them to work for them as well would be stupid as Uber would be getting there work at the quite times of the day using there own drivers.

There is at least one Uber driver on PH, and he has said that he (and others) drive for multiple companies. They just use temporary logo's/numbers etc for what ever company they are driving for at the time.

[7795]

98elise said:

hunton69 said:

Not sure where you got the info about drivers working for other firms.

Any private hire firm that does allow them to work for them as well would be stupid as Uber would be getting there work at the quite times of the day using there own drivers.

There is at least one Uber driver on PH, and he has said that he (and others) drive for multiple companies. They just use temporary logo's/numbers etc for what ever company they are driving for at the time.

This is how i have understood it also speaking to Uber drivers in London.

[Eric Mc]

As expected, HMRC are now sniffing around -


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/27/hmrc_to_cr...

[markcoznottz]

98elise said:

There is at least one Uber driver on PH, and he has said that he (and others) drive for multiple companies. They just use temporary logo's/numbers etc for what ever company they are driving for at the time.

Where it gets really 'weird' is when the driver is advertising Uber by using their logo and wearing their shirt. Should he not be advertising his own business?.

[RedTrident]

Depends if he has another shirt...

[98elise]

markcoznottz said:

98elise said:

There is at least one Uber driver on PH, and he has said that he (and others) drive for multiple companies. They just use temporary logo's/numbers etc for what ever company they are driving for at the time.

Where it gets really 'weird' is when the driver is advertising Uber by using their logo and wearing their shirt. Should he not be advertising his own business?.

I can't see how that would be a problem. I've worked for a one company, that provided services to another company. We were required to wear uniforms and logos for the second company when working on their business.

[markcoznottz]

RedTrident said:

Depends if he has another shirt...

Yea a lot of disguised employees are 'leaned on' to wear a uniform, it would be funny if it didn't cost the country money.

[drainbrain]

Logo'd shirt?

Tax deductible expenditure.

[rxe]

drainbrain said:

I got the 'info' from drivers on our system who worked the uber system at peaks for the surge fares and occasionally at other times for other reasons. Uber didn't impact on our work at any time. In fact they are a boost to provincial private hire biz.

<Stuff deleted>

Edited by drainbrain on Tuesday 1st November 10:19

I've used them very heavily for the last 6 months in the Newcastle area. Not sure if that is more like Edinburgh or London.... My observations:

- They're cheaper than either minicabs or "proper" taxis. About 20 - 30% cheaper. That said, this is not why I use them.

- the car arrives when the app says it will. Unlike minicabs. No more "yeah mate, he's nearly with you" when he's actually dropping off another passenger 10 miles away.

- I'm pushing to move our corporate contract to them. Cheaper, better spend data, and everyone wants it. That's a non-trivial amount of money....

- Beware the attitude of "its for tourists". Everyone is a tourist somewhere. Once they start using it, they'll probably continue.

[drainbrain]

rxe said:

I've used them very heavily for the last 6 months in the Newcastle area. Not sure if that is more like Edinburgh or London.... My observations:

- They're cheaper than either minicabs or "proper" taxis. About 20 - 30% cheaper. That said, this is not why I use them.

- the car arrives when the app says it will. Unlike minicabs. No more "yeah mate, he's nearly with you" when he's actually dropping off another passenger 10 miles away.

- I'm pushing to move our corporate contract to them. Cheaper, better spend data, and everyone wants it. That's a non-trivial amount of money....

- Beware the attitude of "its for tourists". Everyone is a tourist somewhere. Once they start using it, they'll probably continue.

There's so much wrong with that post that it's hardly possible to answer.

1) 20-30% cheaper. Where do you think their drivers are from? Outer Space? They're mostly bribed to leave ph firms. How many drivers do you think will leave a ph firm for 20-30% lower wages? Ok yes for the sometimes big bribe. And a few weeks later? Come on…..get real. Reality? They are DEARER. But uber can't get them a fraction of the work.

2) the app. Why don't you try another company that uses apps? And you know how it works. Have a look and see how many little black ants you can see through the day in some big outlying Newcastle housing scheme? Here you get the odd one in, say, Easterhouse. 30000 people. 1 or 2 cars….30000 people. Hopefully you're not the 300th person that hour who's looking for a taxi in Easterhouse. You'll be waiting a while if you're a dedicated uber user. About a week, maybe. Course you could always wait for one to run out from the city centre 12 miles away. If any of these drivers are daft enough to run that many empty miles for 20-30% less wages.

3) corporate contract? Uber don't do accounts (do they? Don't up here anyway) How can they? Business model couldn't accommodate it. And don't think for one minute contract work isn't taken seriously by both providers and users. Why do you think likes of Glasgow NHS use ph not uber ? Just for fun, what would you GUESS that contract's worth? Or Scotrail's?

4) It's GREAT for tourists who know nothing about local ph. I'd certainly use them if they were available somewhere I'd landed abroad and didn't know anything about any local ph including a number.

They are what they are. It ain't normal UK ph and it ain't a hack biz either. What's faster? Apping for an uber or flagging down a hack with a begging light? etc etc etc.

I LIKE über. It's interesting. But I know quite a number of owners of ph firms and nobody's hurting. There's ONE guy who must be 2nd only to Add Lee in the number he owns. 1000's. He could put uber oob overnight. Very simple. Offer the drivers £1k a skull to leave. Next day do you know how many drivers uber would have? None. But he's no different to anyone else. They're useful to him and that's how they'll stay.

Must say the London experience is so totally different it's unsurprising uber gets some serious biz there. But elsewhere? Not a chance. I think you must have been using some pretty poor ph firms if they lie when you ask where your taxi is? Or is there an undiscovered opportunity for a good ph firm in n'castle?