Incident Croydon tram

[Shakermaker]

MarshPhantom said:

I posted it as a response to the numerous posts on this saying thread saying trams haven't killed anybody for a long time. That isn't true, this is.

Poorly applied and quoted statistics don't help in situations like this.

I'm fairly certain we can agree that, measured per person/mile etc, trams are considerably safer than cars.

Your man in the example above would have likely been killed by a car travelling at the same speed as the tram that hit him, or a bus, or a train etc. But that isn't saying trams are bad - getting hit by a tram is bad, but so is getting hit by a car/bus/train.

[MarshPhantom]

Shakermaker said:

MarshPhantom said:

I posted it as a response to the numerous posts on this saying thread saying trams haven't killed anybody for a long time. That isn't true, this is.

Poorly applied and quoted statistics don't help in situations like this.

I'm fairly certain we can agree that, measured per person/mile etc, trams are considerably safer than cars.

Your man in the example above would have likely been killed by a car travelling at the same speed as the tram that hit him, or a bus, or a train etc. But that isn't saying trams are bad - getting hit by a tram is bad, but so is getting hit by a car/bus/train.

I'm not saying trams are bad, but some have claimed they are absolutely blameless.

[MarshPhantom]

Shakermaker said:

MarshPhantom said:

I posted it as a response to the numerous posts on this saying thread saying trams haven't killed anybody for a long time. That isn't true, this is.

Poorly applied and quoted statistics don't help in situations like this.

I'm fairly certain we can agree that, measured per person/mile etc, trams are considerably safer than cars.

Your man in the example above would have likely been killed by a car travelling at the same speed as the tram that hit him, or a bus, or a train etc. But that isn't saying trams are bad - getting hit by a tram is bad, but so is getting hit by a car/bus/train.

I'm not saying trams are bad, but some have claimed they are absolutely blameless.

[Swervin_Mervin]

MarshPhantom said:

Shakermaker said:

MarshPhantom said:

I posted it as a response to the numerous posts on this saying thread saying trams haven't killed anybody for a long time. That isn't true, this is.

Poorly applied and quoted statistics don't help in situations like this.

I'm fairly certain we can agree that, measured per person/mile etc, trams are considerably safer than cars.

Your man in the example above would have likely been killed by a car travelling at the same speed as the tram that hit him, or a bus, or a train etc. But that isn't saying trams are bad - getting hit by a tram is bad, but so is getting hit by a car/bus/train.

I'm not saying trams are bad, but some have claimed they are absolutely blameless.

In the example you quoted from Manchester the tram likely was completely blameless. Blame would more likely lie with the man in question or any person or events that put him on the line.

[poo at Paul's]

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

[Vipers]

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

There was one bloke on a radio show yesterday who said he had written twice to whoever about his concerns of that stretch of track, and precious experiences of late and heavy braking, and this was some time ago.

Radio 2 just said on the news they hope to publish a preliminary report next week, we shall see.

[don'tbesilly]

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind.Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

I had heard from a friend in Croydon that there were reports of a very similar incident the week before the accident.

According to what he heard the tram had sped around the corner at speed, and the wheels on one side had seemed to leave the track, not sure how truthful the story is though?

I have heard rumours of an accusation of malicious intent aimed at the driver from the same freind, which would seem astonishing if true, is that what you are referring to?

[MarshPhantom]

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

[tannhauser]

Jimmyarm said:

kiethton said:

This, until everything is fully automated (and even then!) accidents can and will happen, no amount of cash could prevent it, as said there needs to be a point where the marginal benefit is considered. Given these are first tram deaths since 1959 (IIRC, of occupants not pedestrians) there is an arguekent to say they are more than safe enough

I would love to hear you say 'marginal benefit' to a family member of one of the deceased.

It is much more likely to be an 'incident' from what I read, we will wait for some more facts to appear.

If there are available systems that could have prevented this, then they should have been a requirement that they were introduced as an ongoing principle of 'safety first'.

You have to draw the line somewhere..

[mondeoman]

MarshPhantom said:

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

There was a facebook post about it on the BBC page yesterday, sounds as though it was a accident waiting to happen.

Gruesome bit next, sorry, but I cant help thinking about it, is it likely that the deaths are due to being falling through the windows and then a combination of being crushed and dragged. Horrible.

[MarshPhantom]

O

mondeoman said:

MarshPhantom said:

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

There was a facebook post about it on the BBC page yesterday, sounds as though it was a accident waiting to happen.

Gruesome bit next, sorry, but I cant help thinking about it, is it likely that the deaths are due to being falling through the windows and then a combination of being crushed and dragged. Horrible.

It is just shocking, I know the road where it happened very well. Also spent a bit of time around Addington as it was just around the corner from Leefest.

[Rich_W]

MarshPhantom said:

O

mondeoman said:

MarshPhantom said:

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

There was a facebook post about it on the BBC page yesterday, sounds as though it was a accident waiting to happen.

Gruesome bit next, sorry, but I cant help thinking about it, is it likely that the deaths are due to being falling through the windows and then a combination of being crushed and dragged. Horrible.

It is just shocking, I know the road where it happened very well. Also spent a bit of time around Addington as it was just around the corner from Leefest.

In the trams there's a lot of hard things to impact against. Bars, Poles. As above there's a lot of glass (I would have assumed it was safety/reinforced glass but possibly not) Could also explain why it's taken a while to ID the dead.

Has anyone who was a passenger on the tram in question spoken yet? Surprised it was so packed at 6am though.

New Addington is the end of the line. If you work in London you'd get that tram to East Croydon in the morning. So not surprising a fair few of the casualties are from there.



Slighlty off topic. New Addington was where the girl Tia Sharp was murdered. The area suffers from a higher than average percentage of undesirables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tia_Sharp

[MarshPhantom]

Rich_W said:

MarshPhantom said:

O

mondeoman said:

MarshPhantom said:

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

There was a facebook post about it on the BBC page yesterday, sounds as though it was a accident waiting to happen.

Gruesome bit next, sorry, but I cant help thinking about it, is it likely that the deaths are due to being falling through the windows and then a combination of being crushed and dragged. Horrible.

It is just shocking, I know the road where it happened very well. Also spent a bit of time around Addington as it was just around the corner from Leefest.

In the trams there's a lot of hard things to impact against. Bars, Poles. As above there's a lot of glass (I would have assumed it was safety/reinforced glass but possibly not) Could also explain why it's taken a while to ID the dead.

Has anyone who was a passenger on the tram in question spoken yet? Surprised it was so packed at 6am though.

New Addington is the end of the line. If you work in London you'd get that tram to East Croydon in the morning. So not surprising a fair few of the casualties are from there.



Slighlty off topic. New Addington was where the girl Tia Sharp was murdered. The area suffers from a higher than average percentage of undesirables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tia_Sharp

Busy at 6am, even busier at 7 probably. Passengers, yes some chap who fell through the broken windows and ended up with his legs trapped beneath the underside of the carriage was on C4 News the other night.

[Robertj21a]

Rich_W said:

In the trams there's a lot of hard things to impact against. Bars, Poles. As above there's a lot of glass (I would have assumed it was safety/reinforced glass but possibly not) Could also explain why it's taken a while to ID the dead.

Has anyone who was a passenger on the tram in question spoken yet? Surprised it was so packed at 6am though.

New Addington is the end of the line. If you work in London you'd get that tram to East Croydon in the morning. So not surprising a fair few of the casualties are from there.



Slighlty off topic. New Addington was where the girl Tia Sharp was murdered. The area suffers from a higher than average percentage of undesirables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tia_Sharp

I wouldn't have said that the tram was 'packed' - they can take a lot more than the 50+ quoted !. Most of the public transport around there will be fairly full around 6am (many transferring to London-bound trains), it's 7-8am when you can hardly get on anything.

[poo at Paul's]

don'tbesilly said:

I had heard from a friend in Croydon that there were reports of a very similar incident the week before the accident.

According to what he heard the tram had sped around the corner at speed, and the wheels on one side had seemed to leave the track, not sure how truthful the story is though?

I have heard rumours of an accusation of malicious intent aimed at the driver from the same freind, which would seem astonishing if true, is that what you are referring to?

That's precisely what I heard and regarding the last sentence, there was a suggestion (quite incomprehensibly awful if true) as to why. I sincerely hope it is mere pub talk / random speculation, if not it's quite astonishing.

[untakenname]

Went past in the car today waiting at the lights where it intersects the tram tracks and there was lots of England flags and stuff laid out https://goo.gl/maps/QHykkeR4x1s

I wonder if tomorrow the trams will be back to a full service?

[Robertj21a]

untakenname said:

Went past in the car today waiting at the lights where it intersects the tram tracks and there was lots of England flags and stuff laid out https://goo.gl/maps/QHykkeR4x1s

I wonder if tomorrow the trams will be back to a full service?

Trams still off tomorrow (Monday)

[lord summerisle]

MarshPhantom said:

I'm not saying trams are bad, but some have claimed they are absolutely blameless.

The station this happened is part of the former Altrincham to Manchester heavy rail line that was converted to the metrolink in the mid-90s
At this point the trams are not running in street-mode.

[Chrisgr31]

poo at Paul's said:

don'tbesilly said:

I had heard from a friend in Croydon that there were reports of a very similar incident the week before the accident.

According to what he heard the tram had sped around the corner at speed, and the wheels on one side had seemed to leave the track, not sure how truthful the story is though?

I have heard rumours of an accusation of malicious intent aimed at the driver from the same freind, which would seem astonishing if true, is that what you are referring to?

That's precisely what I heard and regarding the last sentence, there was a suggestion (quite incomprehensibly awful if true) as to why. I sincerely hope it is mere pub talk / random speculation, if not it's quite astonishing.

It would be surprising if a tram went round a corner fast enough to lift wheels of the track and if that happened I would expect it to derail. Not sure why a driver would actually want to derail a tram or have an accident in one, what was the point of the malicious intent?

Its far more likely that he fell asleep, passed out, or just couldn't stop.

[H6Nathan]

MarshPhantom said:

Rich_W said:

MarshPhantom said:

O

mondeoman said:

MarshPhantom said:

poo at Paul's said:

Heard some rather worrying anecdotal opinion from someone who lives in the local area as to why this may have happened, and suggestion it nearly happened before.
I'm not going to repeat it, as if this is the avenue of the investigation, then it absolutely blows the mind. Anyone else more local heard this rather disturbing rumour? Pub bullst or does it have genuine traction? this

Chap on the TV saying he'd complained to TFL about bad driving on that very tram. There was a similar incident a week before apparently.

I hope the victims families and victims get all the compensation they clearly deserve.

Appears nearly all the victims are from New Addington.

There was a facebook post about it on the BBC page yesterday, sounds as though it was a accident waiting to happen.

Gruesome bit next, sorry, but I cant help thinking about it, is it likely that the deaths are due to being falling through the windows and then a combination of being crushed and dragged. Horrible.

It is just shocking, I know the road where it happened very well. Also spent a bit of time around Addington as it was just around the corner from Leefest.

In the trams there's a lot of hard things to impact against. Bars, Poles. As above there's a lot of glass (I would have assumed it was safety/reinforced glass but possibly not) Could also explain why it's taken a while to ID the dead.

Has anyone who was a passenger on the tram in question spoken yet? Surprised it was so packed at 6am though.

New Addington is the end of the line. If you work in London you'd get that tram to East Croydon in the morning. So not surprising a fair few of the casualties are from there.



Slighlty off topic. New Addington was where the girl Tia Sharp was murdered. The area suffers from a higher than average percentage of undesirables

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tia_Sharp

Busy at 6am, even busier at 7 probably. Passengers, yes some chap who fell through the broken windows and ended up with his legs trapped beneath the underside of the carriage was on C4 News the other night.

I have caught this tram previously and it would have been fairly full at this point. Most of the passengers will have been from New Addington, as the closer you get to Croydon, the more options you have and the service is pretty sparse before 6AM so the trams run fairly full.

The worst injuries were caused by falling/being pushed by the weight of other passenger through broken widows and cut between the vehicle and the tracks. The analogy of a vegetable mandolin is the one that seems to fit best. Horrific stuff and explains the high number of deaths and serious injuries.

As for Addington being full of undesirables - the people on that tram were just ordinary early starting mostly manual workers on their way to their jobs. There would have been no scumbags on there at 6AM. These were good honest people.