Can PH solve the missing Honington airman?
Discussion
wazztie16 said:
I didn't know the poor guy, but have been following the story since it was reported in September, obviously along with others following.
Makes me so mad that the landfill wasn't checked so early on.
I really don't know what else to say.
But I really hope this sort of thing never happens again, it shouldn't have in the first place!
You can see why they didn't search the landfill, they were told that the bin lorry picked up only 11kg or so.Makes me so mad that the landfill wasn't checked so early on.
I really don't know what else to say.
But I really hope this sort of thing never happens again, it shouldn't have in the first place!
More of a question is why it's taken till now to question and check that 11kg figure, and correct it to 100kg.
From what I have read the guy that was arrested late last week, was about whether he had deliberately mis-stated those collection weight records. He was subsequently released without charge or further action, they have decided that the incorrect figure was a genuine error and not any intention to mislead.
I haven't seen anything yet that explains the cause of the weight error, i.e. was it a faulty sensor, written down wrong, or something was miscalculated; until more detailed info on that comes out I don't think we can be in a position to direct any blame!
I've had a quick skim read through the thread but not post by post so apologise if this has already been brought up but..
It seems odd to me that in the space of 1hr 40mins he's got himself in such a state to get thrown out of a club. He's visited 2 bars prior to this so even at a fairly quick drinkers pace you've got time for about 4-6 pints/drinks.
Yes he could have been necking shots but even so, to be absolutely battered buying take-away food then going and sleeping in a doorway only a couple of hours after parking up your car....?
It seems odd to me that in the space of 1hr 40mins he's got himself in such a state to get thrown out of a club. He's visited 2 bars prior to this so even at a fairly quick drinkers pace you've got time for about 4-6 pints/drinks.
Yes he could have been necking shots but even so, to be absolutely battered buying take-away food then going and sleeping in a doorway only a couple of hours after parking up your car....?
kev1974 said:
You can see why they didn't search the landfill, they were told that the bin lorry picked up only 11kg or so.
More of a question is why it's taken till now to question and check that 11kg figure, and correct it to 100kg.
From what I have read the guy that was arrested late last week, was about whether he had deliberately mis-stated those collection weight records. He was subsequently released without charge or further action, they have decided that the incorrect figure was a genuine error and not any intention to mislead.
I haven't seen anything yet that explains the cause of the weight error, i.e. was it a faulty sensor, written down wrong, or something was miscalculated; until more detailed info on that comes out I don't think we can be in a position to direct any blame!
They seem to have a pretty good idea of the weight now so it feels unlikely it was measured wrongly and was more of a records 'problem'.More of a question is why it's taken till now to question and check that 11kg figure, and correct it to 100kg.
From what I have read the guy that was arrested late last week, was about whether he had deliberately mis-stated those collection weight records. He was subsequently released without charge or further action, they have decided that the incorrect figure was a genuine error and not any intention to mislead.
I haven't seen anything yet that explains the cause of the weight error, i.e. was it a faulty sensor, written down wrong, or something was miscalculated; until more detailed info on that comes out I don't think we can be in a position to direct any blame!
I really would suspect someone being a bit creative with some records but it went NFA because there was no way to prove it was anything but a mistake.
As has been mentioned this was a fairly likely scenario for someone disappearing on a night out but *somehow* we have had months of investigation to find some evidence that should have shown up in the first couple of days but which comes out months later. The obvious conclusions may be unfair but I suspect the obvious answer to this little error is the actual one.
bobbo89 said:
I've had a quick skim read through the thread but not post by post so apologise if this has already been brought up but..
It seems odd to me that in the space of 1hr 40mins he's got himself in such a state to get thrown out of a club. He's visited 2 bars prior to this so even at a fairly quick drinkers pace you've got time for about 4-6 pints/drinks.
Yes he could have been necking shots but even so, to be absolutely battered buying take-away food then going and sleeping in a doorway only a couple of hours after parking up your car....?
His own mother described him as 'a social hand-grenade'. I've met blokes like this in the past, who have gone from 0-100mph on the drinking scale in a very short space of time. Usuallly necking a sIt seems odd to me that in the space of 1hr 40mins he's got himself in such a state to get thrown out of a club. He's visited 2 bars prior to this so even at a fairly quick drinkers pace you've got time for about 4-6 pints/drinks.
Yes he could have been necking shots but even so, to be absolutely battered buying take-away food then going and sleeping in a doorway only a couple of hours after parking up your car....?
tload of shots in a very short space of time, usually ends up in being ejected from nightclubs. I was reading some comments on the Daily Wail website last night, much against my better judgement. Some people just can't get it into their heads that people (often homeless, but sometimes pissed) do climb into large Biffa type waste bins for a bit of a kip because those large industrial wheelie bins are warm, dry, probably safe from getting a kicking/mugged and - unfortunately for this chap - most likely left untouched during the night. He probably considered it a safe place to doss down for a few hours shut eye before sobering up enough to walk to his car and drive back to base. That Biffa were collecting in the early hours most likely didn't even occur to him, ultimately that has probably led to his untimely demise in some pretty awful circumstances.
One Daily Wail commentator even said "I don't understand, how would a bin man not be able to sense his weight when throwing the bin into the truck?". FFS, to think these people walk amongst us!!
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Wednesday 8th March 14:29
The bin weight is obviously the key piece of information. If you've taken reasonable steps to confirm its accuracy then it's not rational to spend a lot of money on digging up a landfill site.
Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
La Liga said:
The bin weight is obviously the key piece of information. If you've taken reasonable steps to confirm its accuracy then it's not rational to spend a lot of money on digging up a landfill site.
Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
It's more that disregarding the weight, why didn't they search the landfill in the day or so after he went missing? There'd surely be a tiny area to search, as there wouldn't be much new rubbish, whereas months later, there's obviously a massive amount more. Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
Interesting article from March 2016: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35686743
"George is one of a growing number of people in the UK found sleeping rough in large commercial recycling bins, according to the waste management firm Biffa"
The remains of Matthew Symonds, 34, were found at Biffa's plant in Avonmouth in mid-2014. He is thought to have slept in a bin at the back of a shopping centre in Swindon, before one of the firm's drivers picked up the container. Mr Symonds had been turned away from a homeless shelter after arriving too late to enter.
All the firm's trucks now contain cameras in the vehicle's hopper - or compactor - that allow drivers to see what is being tipped inside. If someone is hiding in the bottom of a container drunk or passed out they could still be missed by initial checks, so this final stage is designed to add an extra safeguard
Be interesting to see how this plays out if he is in that landfill. Bury St Edmunds is a nice place, and I suspect has low-level homelessness. Probably a pointless exercise checking 99.99999% of bins which likely just have rubbish in them. I'd imagine (hope) drivers in Kings Cross check every one. I do hope the poor bloke wasn't on camera going in but was missed, well, because that kind of thing doesn't happen round here.
ETA: I'm not blaming Biffa, just commenting that it's a sad state of affairs that they do all they can to introduce safeguards, but still some people might as the guy says on the video "still get tipped". If I was driving that bin wagon I wouldn't expect anyone to be kipping ina bin there. The speed at which that bloke goes in on the video and all the other waste which could conceal a pissed sleeping person from the camera is pretty frightening.
"George is one of a growing number of people in the UK found sleeping rough in large commercial recycling bins, according to the waste management firm Biffa"
The remains of Matthew Symonds, 34, were found at Biffa's plant in Avonmouth in mid-2014. He is thought to have slept in a bin at the back of a shopping centre in Swindon, before one of the firm's drivers picked up the container. Mr Symonds had been turned away from a homeless shelter after arriving too late to enter.
All the firm's trucks now contain cameras in the vehicle's hopper - or compactor - that allow drivers to see what is being tipped inside. If someone is hiding in the bottom of a container drunk or passed out they could still be missed by initial checks, so this final stage is designed to add an extra safeguard
Be interesting to see how this plays out if he is in that landfill. Bury St Edmunds is a nice place, and I suspect has low-level homelessness. Probably a pointless exercise checking 99.99999% of bins which likely just have rubbish in them. I'd imagine (hope) drivers in Kings Cross check every one. I do hope the poor bloke wasn't on camera going in but was missed, well, because that kind of thing doesn't happen round here.
ETA: I'm not blaming Biffa, just commenting that it's a sad state of affairs that they do all they can to introduce safeguards, but still some people might as the guy says on the video "still get tipped". If I was driving that bin wagon I wouldn't expect anyone to be kipping ina bin there. The speed at which that bloke goes in on the video and all the other waste which could conceal a pissed sleeping person from the camera is pretty frightening.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Wednesday 8th March 14:51
oyster said:
Oakey said:
Jesus, what decade is that person living in that they still think bin men carry the bin over their shoulder before emptying it into the truck?
The binmen where I live pick up individual black sacks with their hands and throw them, by hand, into the truck hopper. In 2017.The sheer level of ineptitude by the coppers in this case is, sadly, exactly what I expect from them.
How anybody of sound mind would take the evidence of any kind of sensor - or as it turns out, someone having written down the output of a sensor - as gospel and not bother searching regardless, particularly given the evidence of the mobile phone signals, is just stunningly, overwhelmingly incompetent.
How anybody of sound mind would take the evidence of any kind of sensor - or as it turns out, someone having written down the output of a sensor - as gospel and not bother searching regardless, particularly given the evidence of the mobile phone signals, is just stunningly, overwhelmingly incompetent.
DamienB said:
The sheer level of ineptitude by the coppers in this case is, sadly, exactly what I expect from them.
How anybody of sound mind would take the evidence of any kind of sensor - or as it turns out, someone having written down the output of a sensor - as gospel and not bother searching regardless, particularly given the evidence of the mobile phone signals, is just stunningly, overwhelmingly incompetent.
Whilst I wouldn't call myself a fan of the police in general, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether there was any incompetence unless you were involved in the investigation. How anybody of sound mind would take the evidence of any kind of sensor - or as it turns out, someone having written down the output of a sensor - as gospel and not bother searching regardless, particularly given the evidence of the mobile phone signals, is just stunningly, overwhelmingly incompetent.
DamienB said:
The sheer level of ineptitude by the coppers in this case is, sadly, exactly what I expect from them.
Most unexpected deaths are solved. Our murder detection rate is one of the highest in the world, for example. The joint military-police Police National Search Centre is frequently visited by other countries to learn our search skills.
This is whilst having with having one of the lowest numbers of police per 100k compared to any comparable countries.
You don't know what you're talking about.
wazztie16 said:
La Liga said:
The bin weight is obviously the key piece of information. If you've taken reasonable steps to confirm its accuracy then it's not rational to spend a lot of money on digging up a landfill site.
Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
It's more that disregarding the weight, why didn't they search the landfill in the day or so after he went missing? There'd surely be a tiny area to search, as there wouldn't be much new rubbish, whereas months later, there's obviously a massive amount more. Regarding 'body dogs', it's an interesting question. I'm not sure whether they'd be able to operate in such an environment.
I expect even at the early stages it would be an extensive and expensive search, but you'd need to know the workings of the landfill.
It may well be the case, during the debrief, that it would have been reasonable to search it earlier.
I don't know.
Literally everybody on the internet, with only scant knowlegde of the facts, said something along the lines of "If the bin said 11kg then it's a mistake somewhere - he's 100% in the tip" and only the Police seemed to think it wasn't worth even a quick scout round, just to double check.
fking incredible detective work.
Couple that with the mob that managed to not suss out that gay dating-site murderer, despite him planting a body in the same location as the last one with a note in the pocket that said "Whatever you do, don't nick the suspicious bloke down the road for this as it's totally a suicide and nothing to do with him..." you'll need to forgive me if my opinion on the detection skills of the detectives is pretty low...
Literally everybody on the internet, with only scant knowlegde of the facts, said something along the lines of "If the bin said 11kg then it's a mistake somewhere - he's 100% in the tip" and only the Police seemed to think it wasn't worth even a quick scout round, just to double check.
f
king incredible detective work.Couple that with the mob that managed to not suss out that gay dating-site murderer, despite him planting a body in the same location as the last one with a note in the pocket that said "Whatever you do, don't nick the suspicious bloke down the road for this as it's totally a suicide and nothing to do with him..." you'll need to forgive me if my opinion on the detection skills of the detectives is pretty low...
Disastrous said:
Literally everybody on the internet, with only scant knowlegde of the facts, said something along the lines of "If the bin said 11kg then it's a mistake somewhere - he's 100% in the tip" and only the Police seemed to think it wasn't worth even a quick scout round, just to double check.
A 'quick scout round' to look for a possibly incinerated, buried body? That sounds a good practical approach that'll yield a high level of search confidence.
Disastrous said:
Couple that with the mob that managed to not suss out that gay dating-site murderer, despite him planting a body in the same location as the last one with a note in the pocket that said "Whatever you do, don't nick the suspicious bloke down the road for this as it's totally a suicide and nothing to do with him..." you'll need to forgive me if my opinion on the detection skills of the detectives is pretty low..
Given the detection rate is mainly in the mid 90% for all the different variables and types of homicides across the country, over many years and thousands of crimes, I'll take the facts over your opinion. La Liga said:
Disastrous said:
Literally everybody on the internet, with only scant knowlegde of the facts, said something along the lines of "If the bin said 11kg then it's a mistake somewhere - he's 100% in the tip" and only the Police seemed to think it wasn't worth even a quick scout round, just to double check.
A 'quick scout round' to look for a possibly incinerated, buried body? That sounds a good practical approach that'll yield a high level of search confidence.
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