Is this homophobia dressed up as parents' rights?

[Rivenink]

joshcowin said:

LGBT - 3.6 million people, I have no clue if all 3.6 are moral or immoral! Are you a qualified spokesperson for the 3.6 million gay people in this country? Are you happy to say if all of them are one thing or another? Are all 3.6 million gay people happy with how children are being taught in schools?

I think we are all equal, hence why I have a problem separating out, incredibly small, specific sections of the population!!

You seem to have mistaken me for a radical person, whereas I am someone who would like to talk about equality in a sensible fashion.

My views are irrelevant, your views are irrelevant, what is relevant is what the state are telling children what is right and wrong, it has nothing to do with them.

Interesting that you jumped to defend yourself so vigorously at what were simple questions; and yet failed to answer them.

The state tells everyone what is right and wrong, if it didn't, there wouldn't be a working legal system. The entire function of a legislature is to make laws that describe the right way to do things.

[oyster]

joshcowin said:

gregs656 said:

joshcowin said:

I would send my child to school for academic reasons, I would not want/expect their morals or standards to be dictated to by the state!

I don't believe that any child who has gone to school, at any period in time, has experienced it purely academically. It is as much a social experience is an academic one.

Teaching children about the existence of LGBT people and that those people are normal people and it's nothing to be ashamed of is not dictating morals.

As I said why them and not the hundreds of other minorities?

I take your point about the social element of school, and I completely agree. However the state is dictating morals, some religious groups don't agree with the state, that is their right!

What other hundreds of other minorities?

I can think of a few.

Race
Sexuality
Gender
Age
Disability

Which one of those should schools NOT be teaching and guiding tolerance about? And why? (since none are choices).

[Rivenink]

desolate said:

Do you know if there is an exemption for religious schools?

Honestly, I don't know.

[anonymous-user]

Rivenink said:

Honestly, I don't know.

Neither do I and I can't seem to find the answer.

I can't see either Catholic or Muslim schools teaching that's it's "good to be gay".
I could be wrong.

[joshcowin]

gregs656 said:

joshcowin said:

Morality. I am talking in broad terms here, not specifically about peoples equality, I would hope that is a no brainier!

I am not arguing with you, I am just discussing. I don't have any accurate information on this specific case, none of us do. (it is article from a left wing tabloid).

Isn't that the point though, you have parents here saying that their children shouldn't be taught something inline with the law of the land.

So, clearly, it isn't a no brainer.

You don't think, for example, that a school should educate children that stealing is wrong, or they shouldn't hit other pupils? How can any institution (education or otherwise) function without defining and enforcing rules that are moral in nature? It is just how society works.

I was unclear, I was hoping that equality is the no brainer!

This is more complicated than the basics of right and wrong. In any case I hope by the time children are at school they have grasped that concept!

As I have said do we have enough/any fact on this issue, the newspaper it is taken from is far from impartial!

[gregs656]

joshcowin said:

I was unclear, I was hoping that equality is the no brainer!

This is more complicated than the basics of right and wrong. In any case I hope by the time children are at school they have grasped that concept!

As I have said do we have enough/any fact on this issue, the newspaper it is taken from is far from impartial!

No I understood you, I just don't see how anyone can look at the history of LGBT equality in this country and not see it has been anything but a struggle which is finally paying out - it is far from a no brainer - it is something that needs to be taught and reinforced still.

It's not complicated at all. What is complicated about it?

I think we do, there doesn't appear to be anything complex about the story.

[anonymous-user]

Buggles said:

I'm not sure if you're joking, but that's not what the curriculum mandates is to be taught. The CHIPS thing is about Challenging Homophobia, nothing whatsoever to do with promoting being gay.

I didn't say anything about promoting homosexuality.
I said "good to be gay" as in it's ok to be gay

What's the difference?
And are religious schools exempted from this?

[gregs656]

desolate said:

I didn't say anything about promoting homosexuality.
I said "good to be gay" as in it's ok to be gay

What's the difference?
And are religious schools exempted from this?

Whether or not they are exempt they don't seem to care - https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2018/11/nss-war...

Here you go - this is the line from the guidance that can be used to do what ever they like - "But it also says faith schools may teach "the distinctive faith perspective on relationships" and promote "balanced debate" on "issues that are seen as contentious"."

[Rivenink]

desolate said:

Neither do I and I can't seem to find the answer.

I can't see either Catholic or Muslim schools teaching that's it's "good to be gay".
I could be wrong.

https://humanism.org.uk/2016/12/20/fundamentalist-christian-private-schools-downgraded-by-ofsted-for-failing-to-promote-british-values/


So maybe they are not?

[anonymous-user]

Buggles said:

Seriously?! You don't know the difference between good and ok... right.

Haven't you heard of the song "good to be gay"?

And in this context what is the difference?

[joshcowin]

Rivenink said:

Interesting that you jumped to defend yourself so vigorously at what were simple questions; and yet failed to answer them.

The state tells everyone what is right and wrong, if it didn't, there wouldn't be a working legal system. The entire function of a legislature is to make laws that describe the right way to do things.

Defend? So far had a pretty good discussion with several posters!

Your simple questions answered clearly -

Do you think LGBT people are moral or immoral? There are 3.6 million of them how anyone feels qualified to speak for all of them I have no idea.

Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people? No, however they are within their right to practise their religion, if that conflicts with the law of the land then they will have to face the consequences!

[Rivenink]

joshcowin said:

Defend? So far had a pretty good discussion with several posters!

Your simple questions answered clearly -

Do you think LGBT people are moral or immoral? There are 3.6 million of them how anyone feels qualified to speak for all of them I have no idea.

Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people? No, however they are within their right to practise their religion, if that conflicts with the law of the land then they will have to face the consequences!

I'm not asking you to speak for them. Let me rephrase the question:

Do you think homosexuality is a moral issue?

[anonymous-user]

Buggles said:

good
Dictionary result for good

/??d/

OK1
Dictionary result for OK

/???ke?/

adjective

adjective: good; comparative adjective: better; superlative adjective: best

1.
to be desired or approved of.
"it's good that he's back to his old self"

adjective

adjective: OK; adjective: okay

1.
satisfactory but not especially good.
"the flight was OK"

I'm not sure why you need it spelling out to you.

I don't - I used inverted commas around 'good to be gay' to reference the famous song about gay rights.

And in this context isn't it good to be gay?

[BlackLabel]

And the parents have won.

“Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parental protests”

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/04/...

[joshcowin]

gregs656 said:

joshcowin said:

I was unclear, I was hoping that equality is the no brainer!

This is more complicated than the basics of right and wrong. In any case I hope by the time children are at school they have grasped that concept!

As I have said do we have enough/any fact on this issue, the newspaper it is taken from is far from impartial!

No I understood you, I just don't see how anyone can look at the history of LGBT equality in this country and not see it has been anything but a struggle which is finally paying out - it is far from a no brainer - it is something that needs to be taught and reinforced still.

It's not complicated at all. What is complicated about it?

I think we do, there doesn't appear to be anything complex about the story.

To be part of the LGBT community was illegal decades ago, enforced by teaching that in schools.
The government is an awful tool to use in order to educate children in such important matters!!

Well this whole discussion has shown how complicated it is, firstly not everyone agrees (the muslim parents), legally people are allowed to practise their religion freely in this country, the muslim parents are not doing anything wrong legally. However many on here feel they are wrong in not educating their children in this matter, that may be the case however they are operating within the laws of this land!

[gregs656]

I see Nick Gibb, schools minister with a crappy voting record on LGBT rights is placing the importance of religion first with his comment.

[joshcowin]

Rivenink said:

joshcowin said:

Defend? So far had a pretty good discussion with several posters!

Your simple questions answered clearly -

Do you think LGBT people are moral or immoral? There are 3.6 million of them how anyone feels qualified to speak for all of them I have no idea.

Do you think religious people should get an exemption on how they treat LGBT people? No, however they are within their right to practise their religion, if that conflicts with the law of the land then they will have to face the consequences!

I'm not asking you to speak for them. Let me rephrase the question:

Do you think homosexuality is a moral issue?

In the context of this thread Yes. The muslim parents believe it is immoral, the state believe it is moral.

[gregs656]

joshcowin said:

To be part of the LGBT community was illegal decades ago, enforced by teaching that in schools.
The government is an awful tool to use in order to educate children in such important matters!!

Well this whole discussion has shown how complicated it is, firstly not everyone agrees (the muslim parents), legally people are allowed to practise their religion freely in this country, the muslim parents are not doing anything wrong legally. However many on here feel they are wrong in not educating their children in this matter, that may be the case however they are operating within the laws of this land!

It was, but we have moved on, and so has our education. I have no idea who else you think should regulate education?

No this discussion has shown that religion makes it complicated, it has not shown it is complicated as such. It is actually fairly straight forward, no child is born homophobic so it is not like you are challenging an established dogma.

I think it is wrong they have successfully stopped the school delivering these lessons, generally I think the 'right to remove' for religious reasons is problematic although I don't know what the answer is.

[BlackLabel]

Buggles said:

BlackLabel said:

And the parents have won.

“Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parental protests”

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/mar/04/...

Not quite, lessons stopped until after Easter because the available lesson time has been given over to RE.

But lessons will “resume only after a full consultation with every parent.”

[joshcowin]

Buggles said:

I don't any have involvement in this either chap, just a story that picqued my interest.

FWIW, I appreciate this debate and am enjoying it. Too often on PH it descends into slanging matches, so cheers.

As you say great to just chat something over! I am trying to look at this from all angles.

'I'm glad we can accommodate Afghani muslims, and I'm glad we have a Muslim community in this country. But when that community starts flexing it's collective muscles and demanding that the nationally mandated educated curriculum is not taught to their children, we have a problem. '

So happy for LGBTQ community to flex their muscles and demand certain education, however muslims not so much? Funnily enough there is a similar amount of gay people in the UK as Muslims! According to wikipedia anyway!

e.g. if this was written would the writer be in the wrong?

'I'm glad we can accommodate LGBTQ people, and I'm glad we have a LGBTQ community in this country. But when that community starts flexing it's collective muscles and demanding that the nationally mandated educated curriculum is not taught to their children, we have a problem.