So what now for the Labour party?

[IanH755]

Halb said:

GMT13 said:

Hilariously I think they’ll swing even further left and away from electability. The PLP don’t decide on the leader and those in control are already defending the policies and blaming everything on brexit. I’m foreseeing a scenario in 6 months where Corbs is still leader after unanimous support from momentum ‘forces’ him to reconsider his resignation

they decide on the shortlist?

Jezza will go eventually, he knows the jig is up

I genuinely don't think he does after watching his Ch4 interview earlier here he point blank refused to say "yes I will step down" and instead just seemed very grumpy that his "I'll let the committee decide after some meetings" answer wasn't enough for the reporter.

He's dug in like an Alabama tick, doesn't want to take any responsibility for this disaster and resign over it (plus his Momentum based party still want him) so it'll take a party split to shift him - thats my guess.

[Sheets Tabuer]

This is whats wrong with the left, they don't think you have a different point of view, they think you are wrong.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ea21n...

[Halb]

tali1 said:

Well,given the Tory majority -it is highly unlikely Labour will win the next election -even if they Torify themselves to the max.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b8b167_a4bf868b...

Edited by tali1 on Friday 13th December 19:22

IN seats, but in votes the Tory vote didn't really move while 2.5 million labour sorts stayed home. Come the next election, with Jezzer and brexit done, al they have to do is turn up if they don't like what Bojo does.

[Hereward]

It will be very interesting to see what happens with McDonnell. He is the real power/danger in the current line-up and Momentum will want to keep him in position. In a normal political party his position is now completely untenable, but these guys have such an unshakeable sense of moral superiority that I cannot see him resigning. Someone needs to push him but Momentum would surely block that.

I voted Tory because I could never vote for Marxism. I will never vote Labour for as long as Momentum/McDonnell/Milne have control.

[tali1]

Halb said:

tali1 said:

Well,given the Tory majority -it is highly unlikely Labour will win the next election -even if they Torify themselves to the max.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/b8b167_a4bf868b...

Edited by tali1 on Friday 13th December 19:22

IN seats, but in votes the Tory vote didn't really move while 2.5 million labour sorts stayed home. Come the next election, with Jezzer and brexit done, al they have to do is turn up if they don't like what Bojo does.

Jezzers done (although he was toast from Day1 tbh) Brexit done ? me personally , i don't think so.

[Johnnytheboy]

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is whats wrong with the left, they don't think you have a different point of view, they think you are wrong.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ea21n...

As I said on another thread, the idea is to win people over to your POV, not label them as the enemy.

[A Winner Is You]

Johnnytheboy said:

Sheets Tabuer said:

This is whats wrong with the left, they don't think you have a different point of view, they think you are wrong.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/ea21n...

As I said on another thread, the idea is to win people over to your POV, not label them as the enemy.

R/Ukpoltics is hilarious, supposed to be a place for discussion but anything that isn't pro-Labour and anti-Brexit gets downvoted to oblivion. I've been lurking to enjoy the salt flowing though.

[Gargamel]

Just watching Faisal Shaheen on Newsnight, I don’t think she gets it.

It was all the Meeja’s fault. All British Prime Ministers are chosen by Rupert Murdoch apparently.

[Killer2005]

Gargamel said:

Just watching Faisal Shaheen on Newsnight, I don’t think she gets it.

It was all the Meeja’s fault. All British Prime Ministers are chosen by Rupert Murdoch apparently.

Was just going to comment the same.

She was saying that they'll take an introspective look at how they lost the general election, completely ignoring the good points Jack straw was making, meanwhile they lost because of the media bias.

Jack straw came across well and was making some valid points, even admitted that Corbyn was too close to Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA. But still it's the media's fault that they lost.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

Hopefully oblivion.

Scotland is a totally different matter but for the rest of the UK:

Yes we need a strong opposition but it doesn't have to be Labour and it doesn't have to be socialist or even a social democratic one. If the problem was only Corbyn the Lib Dems would have at least picked up vote share in the north and midlands last night. They largely lost it. If it was only Brexit then BP would have cleaned up in places like Bishop Auckland and Grimsby.

In fact they voted for a Thatcherite Conservative government.

What form it will take must be determined partly by what Johnson's government does over the next 5 years and where they can find a in his armour. If there's a at the moment it's more visible in Richmond than Blyth.

What I would like to see is a more of a classic liberal party. This could look something like the first Blair administration from 1997 up until identity politics and neo-conservatism took over. It could also incorporate the Lib Dems who I think after the coalition, the revoke mania and the serial failure to find anything like a credible leader from their fairly shallow pool are doomed to be a minor party for decades.

A few bullet points on how I would like this party to look:

Accept Brexit. They had a good go, but it's over and done. Play a constructive role in forging a new relationship with Europe and the world.

Ditch the patronising bribes. There are better ways to help the less well off than attacking "the rich" and offering freebies with the imagined proceeds. Yes good public services and infrastructure are part of it and reasonable employment protection is too. The whole idea of redistribution on the Marxist model is not.

Drop the obsession with identity politics. Tackling genuine racism is good. Attempting to score points by calling everyone and everything racist is ugly and divisive outside Islington. Besides there are loads of white working class people who are a bit sick of it, as I think last night showed. If they vote as a bloc they will win.

Go big on civil liberties. Free speech, anti terror laws, arbitrary stop and search and surveillance are potential weak spots for tough talking Tories, and if their plan for tackling crime is to build more prisons and lock everyone up this probably won't work in the medium term. So have a better plan.


Given the size of the victory and the recent history of Labour I think they're out for a decade and will probably get worse before they get better, but that would be my approach.

Scotland is totally different. I think it probably realistically can have some sort of 'Scandinavian model' social democracy as it's small and homogenous enough to have broad buy in. If the SNP dominate the 2021 elections in the way they dominated the vote last night the case for maintaining a close union becomes pretty well impossible.

[Frank7]

IanH755 said:

I genuinely don't think he does after watching his Ch4 interview earlier here he point blank refused to say "yes I will step down" and instead just seemed very grumpy that his "I'll let the committee decide after some meetings" answer wasn't enough for the reporter.

He's dug in like an Alabama tick, doesn't want to take any responsibility for this disaster and resign over it (plus his Momentum based party still want him) so it'll take a party split to shift him - thats my guess.

My wife said, “Surely he must realise that he’s finished, why is he hanging on?”
I said, “Shhh, I hope he stays at Labour’s helm for ever, they won’t even be elected as dog catchers with him tainting them.”

[Wills2]

Killer2005 said:

Gargamel said:

Just watching Faisal Shaheen on Newsnight, I don’t think she gets it.

It was all the Meeja’s fault. All British Prime Ministers are chosen by Rupert Murdoch apparently.

Was just going to comment the same.

She was saying that they'll take an introspective look at how they lost the general election, completely ignoring the good points Jack straw was making, meanwhile they lost because of the media bias.

Jack straw came across well and was making some valid points, even admitted that Corbyn was too close to Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA. But still it's the media's fault that they lost.

Yeah it was the medias fault for pointing out all the flaws....it always is, that's the trouble with a free press.

[crankedup]

Killer2005 said:

Gargamel said:

Just watching Faisal Shaheen on Newsnight, I don’t think she gets it.

It was all the Meeja’s fault. All British Prime Ministers are chosen by Rupert Murdoch apparently.

Was just going to comment the same.

She was saying that they'll take an introspective look at how they lost the general election, completely ignoring the good points Jack straw was making, meanwhile they lost because of the media bias.

Jack straw came across well and was making some valid points, even admitted that Corbyn was too close to Hamas, Hezbollah and the IRA. But still it's the media's fault that they lost.

Agreed, have to say it’s worrying that the upcoming generation of Labour supporting activists are
so blinkered. Hopefully they will quickly realise that the World of politics is deeper and far more serious than placard waving in the streets.

[biggbn]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Hopefully oblivion.

Scotland is a totally different matter but for the rest of the UK:

Yes we need a strong opposition but it doesn't have to be Labour and it doesn't have to be socialist or even a social democratic one. If the problem was only Corbyn the Lib Dems would have at least picked up vote share in the north and midlands last night. They largely lost it. If it was only Brexit then BP would have cleaned up in places like Bishop Auckland and Grimsby.

In fact they voted for a Thatcherite Conservative government.

What form it will take must be determined partly by what Johnson's government does over the next 5 years and where they can find a in his armour. If there's a at the moment it's more visible in Richmond than Blyth.

What I would like to see is a more of a classic liberal party. This could look something like the first Blair administration from 1997 up until identity politics and neo-conservatism took over. It could also incorporate the Lib Dems who I think after the coalition, the revoke mania and the serial failure to find anything like a credible leader from their fairly shallow pool are doomed to be a minor party for decades.

A few bullet points on how I would like this party to look:

Accept Brexit. They had a good go, but it's over and done. Play a constructive role in forging a new relationship with Europe and the world.

Ditch the patronising bribes. There are better ways to help the less well off than attacking "the rich" and offering freebies with the imagined proceeds. Yes good public services and infrastructure are part of it and reasonable employment protection is too. The whole idea of redistribution on the Marxist model is not.

Drop the obsession with identity politics. Tackling genuine racism is good. Attempting to score points by calling everyone and everything racist is ugly and divisive outside Islington. Besides there are loads of white working class people who are a bit sick of it, as I think last night showed. If they vote as a bloc they will win.

Go big on civil liberties. Free speech, anti terror laws, arbitrary stop and search and surveillance are potential weak spots for tough talking Tories, and if their plan for tackling crime is to build more prisons and lock everyone up this probably won't work in the medium term. So have a better plan.


Given the size of the victory and the recent history of Labour I think they're out for a decade and will probably get worse before they get better, but that would be my approach.

Scotland is totally different. I think it probably realistically can have some sort of 'Scandinavian model' social democracy as it's small and homogenous enough to have broad buy in. If the SNP dominate the 2021 elections in the way they dominated the vote last night the case for maintaining a close union becomes pretty well impossible.

This is a good post. I do believe in a more socialist Britain but not one with the play book lifted straight from a historic manuscript written specifically for the times that inspired it. A more tactile, harnesses capitalism combined with well run well managed public ownership of some vital services would be a start.

[The Li-ion King]

Halb said:

they decide on the shortlist?


Jezza will go eventually, he knows the jig is up

He can find other work. Lead the Hammers to a Top 18 finish?

[stongle]

biggbn said:

This is a good post. I do believe in a more socialist Britain but not one with the play book lifted straight from a historic manuscript written specifically for the times that inspired it. A more tactile, harnesses capitalism combined with well run well managed public ownership of some vital services would be a start.

They should have kept the National Investment bank / Wealth fund idea, and buried McDonnell in a ditch somewhere. Legally ringfenced, but government guaranteed fund to invest in national infrastructure and utilities for the benefit of the Nation? Gets my vote (can't do it with McDonnell, too much theft risk).

Headline grabbing grandstanding (too many giveaways), and a man you're less likely to trust than Jimmy Saville in a kids hospital savaged their manifesto spendies.

The problem is, once you make the policies less headline grabbing, you end up with an opposition that "may" appear only separated by a cigarette paper (from govt); but in reality you can drive quite different outcomes. It's boring, but a better outcome for the country.

You can be opposed to someone on policy, but you don't want to be ideologically and morally opposed. Labour needs a period of introspection to look at its moral and ideological core. If it's about viscous vilification of groups in our society on economic or religious grounds - they are fked. They will not convince the electorate NOR any international allies to their cause.

Whether they will or not is debatable. The parliamentary party obviously wants a less nasty agenda, but the Momentum / hard left may not. The reason is this.

If the conservatives pull off one nation conservatism AND get a benign BREXIT deal - and with a massive majority, time and a compliant EC - it may not be hard; the blue belt is gone for ever AND London too.

This was an inflection point election and they screwed the pooch.

They actually may have to become increasingly radical to appeal to minority and politically polarized group's. A split is a high ish probability outcome, as the parliamentary and centre left says "fk that". Centre left, needs to look to diversify its funding streams so it doesn't need Union or Momentun cash money. They may well find significant corporate AND individual backers....

[Johnnytheboy]

Labour is a fundamentally unstable coalition of the metropolitan internationalist chattering class wing and the old-Labour trades union wing (with the public sector/benefits recipient constituency spread between the two).

The first two often have diametric positions on issues.

This is wonderfully illustrated by things like the "we'll build the Trident subs then not arm them with missiles" debacle, or of course Brexit.

Worse: they need the former wing for the membership and activist base, the latter for money.

[stongle]

Johnnytheboy said:

Labour is a fundamentally unstable coalition of the metropolitan internationalist chattering class wing and the old-Labour trades union wing (with the public sector/benefits recipient constituency spread between the two).

The first two often have diametric positions on issues.

This is wonderfully illustrated by things like the "we'll build the Trident subs then not arm them with missiles" debacle, or of course Brexit.

Worse: they need the former wing for the membership and activist base, the latter for money.

Quite. As I said, the centre / metro wing needs to look at funding sources. Given we have been through a 4 year crisis, that diminished us on the world stage AND been an existential economic threat - there are probably buyers for a centre left party. You can be an effective opposition, without wanting to burn the house down.

Using social media signalling, in its dumbed down format is a disservice to the electorate. The news retweeting Stormzy in his support for Labour, is interesting; but its content wafer thin. If you compare Stormzy to say Public Enemy; whom have been rap and political activists for years- you see he's standing in a puddle compared to Chuck D. I don't agree with ALL of his politics - but it is intellectual. Labour virtue signalling, nah not so much. Stop treating the electorate like fools.

[Teddy Lop]

Johnnytheboy said:

Labour is a fundamentally unstable coalition of the metropolitan internationalist chattering class wing and the old-Labour trades union wing (with the public sector/benefits recipient constituency spread between the two).

The first two often have diametric positions on issues.

This is wonderfully illustrated by things like the "we'll build the Trident subs then not arm them with missiles" debacle, or of course Brexit.

Worse: they need the former wing for the membership and activist base, the latter for money.

the problem is that the "metropolitan internationalist chattering class" have by and large thrown the working classes under the bus with their latest Marxist tinged views of the world, the truely incredulous thing is the betrayal they express when the working classes react to that, with a "how dare you not know your place" elitism akin to any vile upper class snobbery I've experienced.

[egor110]

Johnnytheboy said:

Labour is a fundamentally unstable coalition of the metropolitan internationalist chattering class wing and the old-Labour trades union wing (with the public sector/benefits recipient constituency spread between the two).

The first two often have diametric positions on issues.

This is wonderfully illustrated by things like the "we'll build the Trident subs then not arm them with missiles" debacle, or of course Brexit.

Worse: they need the former wing for the membership and activist base, the latter for money.

Yet that trade union base has voted for conservatives .

I'm a member of the cwu , now bear in mind labour we're on about nationalising royal mail , barely anyone i work with voted for labour .

Yes we might belong to a union , but more and more staff are paying the union fee's but not the political levy and the days of the union saying vote labour and us all voting labour are long gone .