High Street chains favouring UK employees
Discussion
Nickgnome said:
John Locke said:
We are already paying the (not very well) hidden costs of benefits to those who are not working, or working for below the true market rate and being subsidised by Tax Credits; when employers pay the proper rate, that tax burden will disappear, so the cost of living may even fall. Regardless, it is wrong for anyone working full time to be paid less than that which is needed for a decent standard of living, and if I have to pay an extra tenner when I go out for a meal, or an extra score on my weekly shop so that the person providing the service can live properly, then I'll suffer it.
Surely there are two issues here.One is a minimum wage that allows a person to live without government subsidy but also to pay into a pension fund at a level which is sufficient to give them a pension from 68 or whatever age it is. This will obviously be significantly more than the current rate. It would additionally require a complete overhaul of the business and personal tax system.
It will mean that a number of companies may become unviable. One could argue that they should not have been in business anyway.
However the second issue is the risk of making some of our exports uncompetitive which would be a major own goal.
Indeed, and I would certainly argue that.
I may be missing something, but cannot think of anything which we export which would be affected by increased wages at the lower end; those who work in manufacturing are already reasonably well paid, those in financial services much more so. What export industries do we have which are staffed by minimum / low wage slaves?
slightlyoldgit said:
The irony is sir - I think the mix is probably more akin to what it was back when you and I were lads - 5%-10% max is really needed.
The rest of the jobs are just not requiring it and our youth should be getting their asses into apprenticeships not debt!
Part of the problem is that because there's been this drive to get more and more people to university, many jobs now require a degree where a generation ago you wouldn't have needed one for the same job, meaning not going to university potentially cuts you off from a lot of jobs. The rest of the jobs are just not requiring it and our youth should be getting their asses into apprenticeships not debt!
Nickgnome said:
It must be my age. When he stated Python. I instantly thought Monte and Flying Circus.
Modern technology always has silly names. Python is just an absurdly powerful language that really good at handling data, and has an absolute truck load of libraries that have been built by other people. Simple example: tell me if the person in Picture A is the same as the one in Picture B is literally one line of code (when you’re using AWS APIs.). It’s also a really easy language to learn, and is a really good grounding for learning other languages. I last coded COBOL and PL/SQL “in anger” at work - and I’ve picked it up in a few weeks. My son (17) can touch type python and has been doing an A level project based on voice recognition, so has had a lot of exposure to the likes of containers/docker. I run a team of people who do this stuff, ranging in salary from 40K - 250K. He could do the 40K guys job right now. It’s tempting for him not to go to Uni, but I think 3 years of Computer Science would be beneficial.
The beauty of it is that no money is required. An AWS free account will do everything you need - I’ve beaten the crap out of mine and I think the total bill is 19 cents. There is a 4 hour (!) video on youtube that is as good as any “paid for” training course. If you’ve got a browser and an internet connection, you can do it.
John Locke said:
When the apparently limitless supply of exploitable labour from the EU dries up, employers will have no choice but to offer pay which reflects the real cost of living in Britain, to the benefit of the indigenous, and the immigrants who choose to remain. Not before time; 20 -30 year olds have had a rubbish employment deal over the past 15 - 20 years.
I hope this happens. It will hopefully encourage higher wages for the lowest wage earners. And in turn create a fairer society.But I expect some of the same people applauding the measure of keeping immigrants out, will also being the first to complain when prices go up.
Inflation will probably rise, and we have to be prepared for that. And then you have to wonder if the wage increases will be eaten by the increase in living costs. One thing is for sure, shareholders won’t put up with less profit.
RizzoTheRat said:
slightlyoldgit said:
The irony is sir - I think the mix is probably more akin to what it was back when you and I were lads - 5%-10% max is really needed.
The rest of the jobs are just not requiring it and our youth should be getting their asses into apprenticeships not debt!
Part of the problem is that because there's been this drive to get more and more people to university, many jobs now require a degree where a generation ago you wouldn't have needed one for the same job, meaning not going to university potentially cuts you off from a lot of jobs. The rest of the jobs are just not requiring it and our youth should be getting their asses into apprenticeships not debt!
rxe said:
Nickgnome said:
It must be my age. When he stated Python. I instantly thought Monte and Flying Circus.
Modern technology always has silly names. Python is just an absurdly powerful language that really good at handling data, and has an absolute truck load of libraries that have been built by other people. Simple example: tell me if the person in Picture A is the same as the one in Picture B is literally one line of code (when you’re using AWS APIs.). It’s also a really easy language to learn, and is a really good grounding for learning other languages. I last coded COBOL and PL/SQL “in anger” at work - and I’ve picked it up in a few weeks. My son (17) can touch type python and has been doing an A level project based on voice recognition, so has had a lot of exposure to the likes of containers/docker. I run a team of people who do this stuff, ranging in salary from 40K - 250K. He could do the 40K guys job right now. It’s tempting for him not to go to Uni, but I think 3 years of Computer Science would be beneficial.
The beauty of it is that no money is required. An AWS free account will do everything you need - I’ve beaten the crap out of mine and I think the total bill is 19 cents. There is a 4 hour (!) video on youtube that is as good as any “paid for” training course. If you’ve got a browser and an internet connection, you can do it.
If he can’t get a job as a junior somewhere then get him on an apprenticeship.
amusingduck said:
AlienLifeForm said:
One thing is for sure, shareholders won’t put up with less profit.
What does that even mean?Why do they 'put up' with the level of profit they make today, instead of 'not putting up' with not making twice the profit?
It's all fine and dandy for some to claim that they will be happy to see the cost of living rise but the reality is they are in the minority and most will not accept it willingly at all. This will put pressure on the Government to seek cheaper labour, once again.
Consider too that if the cost of being a tourist in the UK rises due to wage increases, there will be a risk that the UK loses tourism due to an expensive Pound plus these increased costs thanks to a higher minimum wage. The UK could literally price itself out of competition with other destinations and suffer accordingly, which will have a knock-on effect for locals.
The UK is not a cheap place to live in already...it's about to get more expensive and it'll be interesting to see how most react to it in reality, not just wannabe altruists on the internet.
slightlyoldgit said:
If he wants to get into technology in a UK based software company and he is that good already, a degree will be a waste of time.
If he can’t get a job as a junior somewhere then get him on an apprenticeship.
Not necessarily. A good comp sci degree will lay many foundations beyond his current use of technology.If he can’t get a job as a junior somewhere then get him on an apprenticeship.
Coolbananas said:
Shareholders will move their investment capital to higher yielding enterprises if the companies they are currently invested in begin to show a decline or stagnation that isn't present in other enterprises. The World of business is not altruistic, it is profit-driven. If the cost of labour increases in the UK, Shareholders will not want to subsidise that with their profit potential being reduced.
It's all fine and dandy for some to claim that they will be happy to see the cost of living rise but the reality is they are in the minority and most will not accept it willingly at all. This will put pressure on the Government to seek cheaper labour, once again.
Consider too that if the cost of being a tourist in the UK rises due to wage increases, there will be a risk that the UK loses tourism due to an expensive Pound plus these increased costs thanks to a higher minimum wage. The UK could literally price itself out of competition with other destinations and suffer accordingly, which will have a knock-on effect for locals.
The UK is not a cheap place to live in already...it's about to get more expensive and it'll be interesting to see how most react to it in reality, not just wannabe altruists on the internet.
Nor should the tax payer be expected to subsidise the cost of a barista It's all fine and dandy for some to claim that they will be happy to see the cost of living rise but the reality is they are in the minority and most will not accept it willingly at all. This will put pressure on the Government to seek cheaper labour, once again.
Consider too that if the cost of being a tourist in the UK rises due to wage increases, there will be a risk that the UK loses tourism due to an expensive Pound plus these increased costs thanks to a higher minimum wage. The UK could literally price itself out of competition with other destinations and suffer accordingly, which will have a knock-on effect for locals.
The UK is not a cheap place to live in already...it's about to get more expensive and it'll be interesting to see how most react to it in reality, not just wannabe altruists on the internet.
Something different needed to be done. We have to get to a position where less than 50% of people are dependent on benefits. Worth the risk IMO.
I suspect the reason Boris got the majority he did was that many feel the same way.
Bring on the experiment.
vaud said:
slightlyoldgit said:
If he wants to get into technology in a UK based software company and he is that good already, a degree will be a waste of time.
If he can’t get a job as a junior somewhere then get him on an apprenticeship.
Not necessarily. A good comp sci degree will lay many foundations beyond his current use of technology.If he can’t get a job as a junior somewhere then get him on an apprenticeship.
3 year process and coming in on the technology track (we do others in the wider business covering HR, Finance etc) we have a choice of 9 main areas they can choose to work in such as R&D, Software Development, UX & Design, Product Management, Architecture, Corporate IT and a few others.
They choose 4 they like and then do 6 month rotations with a structured learning programme in each that are also tied to various NVQ level qualifications up to level 5 and beyond. They do that over two years and year one they earn £15k a year and £18k in year two.
Then in year three they pick one of the 4 they liked, did well in etc and they then go into a junior role in that team in year three on the proper salary for that role.
That is not only how we operate the apprenticeship structure but I also sit on one or two external advisory boards and work with other local businesses and others wider afield on this as well. So I speak to and work with a number of other fellow CxO level folks in pure technology companies, banks, finance in general and many heavy digital focused businesses - many of whom are household names. They also operate a very similar structure.
It is actually structured like and very similar to the old fashioned management training programmes many companies used to offer (and still do) where the person rotated around the business whilst doing day release to get a HNC/D or Degree. Or indeed how many graduate programmes also work.
So if your son wants a future career in a digitally focused business in the general technology space I can quite categorically say he will have a far better grounding and be three years ahead in his career as a minimum, if he goes on an apprenticeship scheme like the above. He will also not have 3 years of student debt (which depending on your personal circumstances may not be an issue granted).
So if you consider his position in 3-4 years time and he is going up for a role and he is there with his shiny 1st from a decent Russell Group Uni applying for a job and his competition are those that have done that kind of apprenticeship - he will lose out in considerably more circumstances than he will win. That is also not just me saying that, it is those same folks who I work with on those advisory boards etc saying the same thing.
Take as you find of course but that is the reality of many tech and digitally focused businesses around the UK today.
Edited by slightlyoldgit on Friday 21st February 12:06
Both my nieces have joined (different) large accountancy firms as apprentices instead of going to Uni. They will work in the business whilst also studying and gaining their qualifications, one aspires to be an auditor and the other a management accountant. As already stated, they are earning whilst learning and advancing their career and won't have a student debt as the studying is paid by their employer. They both have very good grades and would have had their pick of Universities but actively chose this advancement route. Whilst they will miss out on Uni 'life' I'm sure that they will gain on career advancement.
langtounlad said:
Both my nieces have joined (different) large accountancy firms as apprentices instead of going to Uni. They will work in the business whilst also studying and gaining their qualifications, one aspires to be an auditor and the other a management accountant. As already stated, they are earning whilst learning and advancing their career and won't have a student debt as the studying is paid by their employer. They both have very good grades and would have had their pick of Universities but actively chose this advancement route. Whilst they will miss out on Uni 'life' I'm sure that they will gain on career advancement.
Our CFO did exactly this, coming up through the Mgt accountancy route in one of the Big 4 and left there at a decent level to come out into industry as an FD first and our CFO now. I think the decision to go to university or not with regard to career advantages depends completely on what career you're going into. Some will have a "requirement" (often an unwritten one) that you be a graduate, others will value more the 3 years of on-the-job training you had (even if it's not in that specific line of work).
Computer science degrees have long been disadvantageous for *most* IT related careers. OTOH, for those that haven't/can't teach themselves coding they will give a good grounding in the principles and teach one or two languages so they might provide that leg-up a certain individual needs.
As such, the question of whether to go to university or not will need to consider a number of factors and there is no one answer which fits all.
My personal experience was to leave school with A levels and good self-taught computer skills and attend a computer science degree. A year and a half in, I realised that only 10% or so of the course content was actually teaching me anything new and worse, that the 10% of new stuff wasn't all that useful or interesting to me. I left the degree without a qualification (but a decent wedge of debt albeit a lot less than it would be these days) and it has made no real bearing on my ability to earn or advance. That said, I don't regret going to university because it gave me the opportunity to move away from my home town, meet new people and generally transition from being a teen to being an adult. I learnt how to cook for myself, run my own finances etc.
If some 18 yr old kid was looking to have a career in my current line of work I would in most cases tell them not to bother with university unless they saw value outside of the qualification itself.
Computer science degrees have long been disadvantageous for *most* IT related careers. OTOH, for those that haven't/can't teach themselves coding they will give a good grounding in the principles and teach one or two languages so they might provide that leg-up a certain individual needs.
As such, the question of whether to go to university or not will need to consider a number of factors and there is no one answer which fits all.
My personal experience was to leave school with A levels and good self-taught computer skills and attend a computer science degree. A year and a half in, I realised that only 10% or so of the course content was actually teaching me anything new and worse, that the 10% of new stuff wasn't all that useful or interesting to me. I left the degree without a qualification (but a decent wedge of debt albeit a lot less than it would be these days) and it has made no real bearing on my ability to earn or advance. That said, I don't regret going to university because it gave me the opportunity to move away from my home town, meet new people and generally transition from being a teen to being an adult. I learnt how to cook for myself, run my own finances etc.
If some 18 yr old kid was looking to have a career in my current line of work I would in most cases tell them not to bother with university unless they saw value outside of the qualification itself.
markyb_lcy said:
I think the decision to go to university or not with regard to career advantages depends completely on what career you're going into. Some will have a "requirement" (often an unwritten one) that you be a graduate, others will value more the 3 years of on-the-job training you had (even if it's not in that specific line of work).
Computer science degrees have long been disadvantageous for *most* IT related careers. OTOH, for those that haven't/can't teach themselves coding they will give a good grounding in the principles and teach one or two languages so they might provide that leg-up a certain individual needs.
As such, the question of whether to go to university or not will need to consider a number of factors and there is no one answer which fits all.
My personal experience was to leave school with A levels and good self-taught computer skills and attend a computer science degree. A year and a half in, I realised that only 10% or so of the course content was actually teaching me anything new and worse, that the 10% of new stuff wasn't all that useful or interesting to me. I left the degree without a qualification (but a decent wedge of debt albeit a lot less than it would be these days) and it has made no real bearing on my ability to earn or advance. That said, I don't regret going to university because it gave me the opportunity to move away from my home town, meet new people and generally transition from being a teen to being an adult. I learnt how to cook for myself, run my own finances etc.
If some 18 yr old kid was looking to have a career in my current line of work I would in most cases tell them not to bother with university unless they saw value outside of the qualification itself.
Have computer science degrees been disadvantageous? I have one and did OK out of a (initially) technology career...but I am very close to being officially old now so not sure what happens lately.Computer science degrees have long been disadvantageous for *most* IT related careers. OTOH, for those that haven't/can't teach themselves coding they will give a good grounding in the principles and teach one or two languages so they might provide that leg-up a certain individual needs.
As such, the question of whether to go to university or not will need to consider a number of factors and there is no one answer which fits all.
My personal experience was to leave school with A levels and good self-taught computer skills and attend a computer science degree. A year and a half in, I realised that only 10% or so of the course content was actually teaching me anything new and worse, that the 10% of new stuff wasn't all that useful or interesting to me. I left the degree without a qualification (but a decent wedge of debt albeit a lot less than it would be these days) and it has made no real bearing on my ability to earn or advance. That said, I don't regret going to university because it gave me the opportunity to move away from my home town, meet new people and generally transition from being a teen to being an adult. I learnt how to cook for myself, run my own finances etc.
If some 18 yr old kid was looking to have a career in my current line of work I would in most cases tell them not to bother with university unless they saw value outside of the qualification itself.
I did see plenty of IT careers/firms not caring what your degree was in. But am not sure that was entirely wise.
One thing we must not forget, however, is that doing a degree isn't solely about teaching you a specific subject. It should be about the methods of learning, and a rounded degree will assist with plenty of other stuff. As well as allowing you to wear the same clothes for 3-5yrs, drink heavily and get turned down by more girls than you could shake a stick at
I no longer use any of the pure technical stuff I learnt at uni, but it would be folly to think my time there hasn't helped me constantly since in subtle and not so ways.
The mistakes we made were insisting that everyone should go to university. It was always bulls
t, and was always destined to have a detrimental impact to our education standards. There should always have been a place for vocational training and it should never have been allowed to be considered second best.Hopefully that is now changing.
Murph7355 said:
Have computer science degrees been disadvantageous? I have one and did OK out of a (initially) technology career...but I am very close to being officially old now so not sure what happens lately.
I think it's the internet "what done it". These days there is so much good and free learning content online that IMO anyone with some skills and discipline in self-teaching (which to be fair are just as required in university) can teach themselves pretty much any of the skills I personally use on a daily basis. If I was 10 years older (I'm 38) I think I would have HAD to go to university to pickup those skills.markyb_lcy said:
Murph7355 said:
Have computer science degrees been disadvantageous? I have one and did OK out of a (initially) technology career...but I am very close to being officially old now so not sure what happens lately.
I think it's the internet "what done it". These days there is so much good and free learning content online that IMO anyone with some skills and discipline in self-teaching (which to be fair are just as required in university) can teach themselves pretty much any of the skills I personally use on a daily basis. If I was 10 years older (I'm 38) I think I would have HAD to go to university to pickup those skills.I have spoken to him a fair bit and all of his learning started online when he was 10 or 11 and he basically has a decade of learning at a high level and standard as well as a fair bit of practical application of technology under his belt already - at 20.... Oh and he is already on just over £50k.
markyb_lcy said:
Murph7355 said:
Have computer science degrees been disadvantageous? I have one and did OK out of a (initially) technology career...but I am very close to being officially old now so not sure what happens lately.
I think it's the internet "what done it". These days there is so much good and free learning content online that IMO anyone with some skills and discipline in self-teaching (which to be fair are just as required in university) can teach themselves pretty much any of the skills I personally use on a daily basis. If I was 10 years older (I'm 38) I think I would have HAD to go to university to pickup those skills.But your point about discipline, self starting and desire is key. University courses should be helping foster these skills, and certainly used to (* ). I think that's why firms started worrying less about the specific course and more about the attendance and outcome - narrowing the odds that someone had demonstrated these areas of life.
Unfortunately everyone going diminished that too.
(* ) there is, of course, a decent likelihood that this is entirely down to the individual and that attendance at uni or not makes little difference. A degree or other HE certificate is no guarantee that someone will succeed...which brings me back to drinking and girls
Murph7355 said:
markyb_lcy said:
Murph7355 said:
Have computer science degrees been disadvantageous? I have one and did OK out of a (initially) technology career...but I am very close to being officially old now so not sure what happens lately.
I think it's the internet "what done it". These days there is so much good and free learning content online that IMO anyone with some skills and discipline in self-teaching (which to be fair are just as required in university) can teach themselves pretty much any of the skills I personally use on a daily basis. If I was 10 years older (I'm 38) I think I would have HAD to go to university to pickup those skills.But your point about discipline, self starting and desire is key. University courses should be helping foster these skills, and certainly used to (* ). I think that's why firms started worrying less about the specific course and more about the attendance and outcome - narrowing the odds that someone had demonstrated these areas of life.
Unfortunately everyone going diminished that too.
(* ) there is, of course, a decent likelihood that this is entirely down to the individual and that attendance at uni or not makes little difference. A degree or other HE certificate is no guarantee that someone will succeed...which brings me back to drinking and girls
For the most part that route is what an apprenticeship now structures and outside of the none work related benefits of going to Uni, a Comp Sci degree is largely not going to help you career wise in IT as a general rule.
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