Discussion
NerveAgent said:
crankedup5 said:
Trades could be the work to be in for the future job prospects, thinking about the influence that A.I is going to have on the job market ?
I think you lack imagination of what AI paired other technologies could do with repetitive manual Labour tasks…TX.
272BHP said:
It is being taught to them though, just not at University.
There are more than one way to skin a cat.
I agree, and I would argue neither is better than the other.There are more than one way to skin a cat.
Quite obviously the learning environment in a university is different from that in a business. That is beneficial on both individual and economy wide scales.
A university gives you the freedom to explore riskier or more uncertain or more experimental ideas and technologies. A business gives you an environment where constraints may drive creativity in a way they wouldn’t in a university. I have only ever worked in universities. i can be pragmatic but I have to be intentional about it. I suspect in a business environment such pragmatism would become second nature.
The different is important on a larger scale too. Take the businesses (or non profit foundations) now building functional commercial machine learning products like the LLMs (like chatGPT). Or those building the first smartphones 15 years ago. Both of those have only been possible off the back of decades of research and work in universities. There is learning that was necessary to be able to do those things that simply could not have happened in businesses because there was no commercially justifiable (ie short term) need or desire for it. It all happened by people asking ‘what if’ for the sake of it, in an environment where that question and approach IS valuable.
So the silliest part of this thread is the sneaky idea that you can’t both go to university and benefit from it, and then go and get a job and then benefit from that too. Of course you can. University doesn’t prevent you from learning ‘on the job’, it enhances it.
PlywoodPascal said:
Terminator X said:
What is your prediction on the date we will see robot chipies on site?
TX.
Pretty soon, full sentience isn’t even going to be necessary.TX.
As I mentioned, I think it will affect the new build side of trades initially and it’ll be in a factory, not “onsite”.
Timeline…already happening in small amounts in some parts of the world.
272BHP said:
GroundEffect said:
If we want the UK to compete on the global stage for investment, R&D going forwards if anything we should be asking for more to go to university. The next industrial revolution is here in software development, AI and other niche areas. The UK is not a volume manufacturer of anything, we are a specialist nation. We need to continue fostering that to keep up.
If you have Chinese and Indian kids being pushed in huge numbers to go to technical universities and get amazing degrees and become technically very competent, what are we going to do to ensure we're not left behind.
But what do they gain from university in this area that they can't learn outside it?If you have Chinese and Indian kids being pushed in huge numbers to go to technical universities and get amazing degrees and become technically very competent, what are we going to do to ensure we're not left behind.
The truly talented are already way ahead of what most lecturers are capable of teaching them. Get them out into the work place or research straight away not stifled going over stuff they did years ago.
No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
GroundEffect said:
272BHP said:
GroundEffect said:
If we want the UK to compete on the global stage for investment, R&D going forwards if anything we should be asking for more to go to university. The next industrial revolution is here in software development, AI and other niche areas. The UK is not a volume manufacturer of anything, we are a specialist nation. We need to continue fostering that to keep up.
If you have Chinese and Indian kids being pushed in huge numbers to go to technical universities and get amazing degrees and become technically very competent, what are we going to do to ensure we're not left behind.
But what do they gain from university in this area that they can't learn outside it?If you have Chinese and Indian kids being pushed in huge numbers to go to technical universities and get amazing degrees and become technically very competent, what are we going to do to ensure we're not left behind.
The truly talented are already way ahead of what most lecturers are capable of teaching them. Get them out into the work place or research straight away not stifled going over stuff they did years ago.
No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
Electro1980 said:
crankedup5 said:
Electro1980 said:
crankedup5 said:
Not sure how young people cannot improve their lives if they so wish, big World out there.
Retirement age will again increase to 67 years of age in 2028 and another increase to 68 years in 2046. Retirement is not compulsory in all circumstances, which is how it should be.
From the person who screams and cries every time someone suggests the tripple lock is unaffordable? “I’m alright Jack” through and through.Retirement age will again increase to 67 years of age in 2028 and another increase to 68 years in 2046. Retirement is not compulsory in all circumstances, which is how it should be.
I do think a safeguard is required that facilitates an increase in pensions each year that keeps the pension some sort of meaningful allowance for those that retire.
Stop your lies and misinterpretations, I think that most rational people would not interpret my post that you dug out as ‘screams and cries every time somebody suggests the triple lock is unaffordible’
Edited by crankedup5 on Monday 20th November 11:15
GroundEffect said:
Do you really think doing it in your spare time can ever compare with a full-time Masters or PhD level education? I know the trope around here is that students are just partying for however many years they're in education but for STEM degrees it's anything but. I did 6 years and it was more than a full-time (40hr/week) for those 6 years. Hell, the teaching and tutorials alone were 40 hours. With tuition from some of the world's leading experts in my field of Aerospace Engineering.
No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
Computer Science is just different though.No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
We have graduate applicants that struggle to code simple algorithms in a technical interview. We also have other applicants with a well stacked GitHub account who have contributed heavily to open source projects used by thousands of companies worldwide.
Seriously, who you gonna call back?
I know some companies say that want a degree but in most cases that is entirely flexible in the face of obvious competency and talent.
GT03ROB said:
We don't need more going to university though. We need more doing the right courses. The problem is the right courses are hard work. Hows about the government take a step to supporting STEM degrees by subsiding the fees for these or make them free for all who graduate. Get people getting the education we need..
What are the 'right course'? Who decides which make the grade and which are consigned to the gutter? Which gets subsidies? What education do we 'need'? If it's merely for businesses requiring highly specialised skill sets, shouldn't it be they who pay for them and not me? It's what happens with apprenticeships.Do we need media studies, the great bête noire of PH posters? I mean, there's a fair bit of media about and shouldn't someone know what's going on? There are very few English degrees available I'm told. That'd help a great deal when it comes to apostrophe absence and misuse.
Derek Smith said:
GT03ROB said:
We don't need more going to university though. We need more doing the right courses. The problem is the right courses are hard work. Hows about the government take a step to supporting STEM degrees by subsiding the fees for these or make them free for all who graduate. Get people getting the education we need..
What are the 'right course'? Who decides which make the grade and which are consigned to the gutter? Which gets subsidies? What education do we 'need'? If it's merely for businesses requiring highly specialised skill sets, shouldn't it be they who pay for them and not me? It's what happens with apprenticeships.Do we need media studies, the great bête noire of PH posters? I mean, there's a fair bit of media about and shouldn't someone know what's going on? There are very few English degrees available I'm told. That'd help a great deal when it comes to apostrophe absence and misuse.
You don't know what you are going need to know in the future.
This article is well worth a read - well written, interesting, apposite for this thread: https://www.ias.edu/ideas/usefulness-useless-knowl...
Derek Smith said:
GT03ROB said:
We don't need more going to university though. We need more doing the right courses. The problem is the right courses are hard work. Hows about the government take a step to supporting STEM degrees by subsiding the fees for these or make them free for all who graduate. Get people getting the education we need..
What are the 'right course'? Who decides which make the grade and which are consigned to the gutter? Which gets subsidies? What education do we 'need'? If it's merely for businesses requiring highly specialised skill sets, shouldn't it be they who pay for them and not me? It's what happens with apprenticeships.Do we need media studies, the great bête noire of PH posters? I mean, there's a fair bit of media about and shouldn't someone know what's going on? There are very few English degrees available I'm told. That'd help a great deal when it comes to apostrophe absence and misuse.
Business rarely requires highly specialised skill sets, but it does require people with a good grasp of technical & engineering principals. With this basis it develops the highly specialised skills it needs.
Depending on the figures you read we have 40-45% of kids getting a degree. Yet still we don’t have enough graduates in the skills we need. The issue is not the number of graduates it’s the type of graduates.
Of course I could be wrong & we can build our economy on media studies, politics & sociology! I wouldn’t however be betting my house on it.
I love boomers.
They spend so much time in their own heads, seething with anger about "the state of [insert boomer target] nowadays", that they convince themselves that their silly opinions are actually facts.
A few inconvenient facts:
1. People with degrees earn significantly more than those without, and contribute significantly more in income tax through their lives: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual...
2. Only "being in work for 10 minutes" has nothing to do with young people being unable to afford a house. The average house price to income ratio has more than doubled since the boomers stumbled onto the housing ladder in the 70s.
https://www.financialreporter.co.uk/income-to-hous...
3. Boomers are sitting on three quarters of the personal wealth in the UK, because they've had it so easy
https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/proper...
But yes, going to Vietnam for a long holiday and studying at University are the real problems here.
They spend so much time in their own heads, seething with anger about "the state of [insert boomer target] nowadays", that they convince themselves that their silly opinions are actually facts.
A few inconvenient facts:
1. People with degrees earn significantly more than those without, and contribute significantly more in income tax through their lives: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual...
2. Only "being in work for 10 minutes" has nothing to do with young people being unable to afford a house. The average house price to income ratio has more than doubled since the boomers stumbled onto the housing ladder in the 70s.
https://www.financialreporter.co.uk/income-to-hous...
3. Boomers are sitting on three quarters of the personal wealth in the UK, because they've had it so easy
https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/proper...
But yes, going to Vietnam for a long holiday and studying at University are the real problems here.
272BHP said:
GroundEffect said:
Do you really think doing it in your spare time can ever compare with a full-time Masters or PhD level education? I know the trope around here is that students are just partying for however many years they're in education but for STEM degrees it's anything but. I did 6 years and it was more than a full-time (40hr/week) for those 6 years. Hell, the teaching and tutorials alone were 40 hours. With tuition from some of the world's leading experts in my field of Aerospace Engineering.
No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
Computer Science is just different though.No one without that foundation is ever going to compete. I have real experience of this now - I have moved from mechanical/aerodynamic engineering to electrical engineering. My peers who did EE as their foundation have such a leg-up it's a gap that's incredibly hard to close - even though I have engineering qualifications already.
We have graduate applicants that struggle to code simple algorithms in a technical interview. We also have other applicants with a well stacked GitHub account who have contributed heavily to open source projects used by thousands of companies worldwide.
Seriously, who you gonna call back?
I know some companies say that want a degree but in most cases that is entirely flexible in the face of obvious competency and talent.
defblade said:
Earthdweller said:
One of the biggest mistakes of the Blair era was the huge push to get everyone into university
My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
Spot on. Root cause: Blair wanting lower unemployment figures for young people. Everything else just (unintended?) consequences. My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
Terminator X said:
NerveAgent said:
crankedup5 said:
Trades could be the work to be in for the future job prospects, thinking about the influence that A.I is going to have on the job market ?
I think you lack imagination of what AI paired other technologies could do with repetitive manual Labour tasks…TX.
C70R said:
I love boomers.
They spend so much time in their own heads, seething with anger about "the state of [insert boomer target] nowadays", that they convince themselves that their silly opinions are actually facts.
A few inconvenient facts:
1. People with degrees earn significantly more than those without, and contribute significantly more in income tax through their lives: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual...
2. Only "being in work for 10 minutes" has nothing to do with young people being unable to afford a house. The average house price to income ratio has more than doubled since the boomers stumbled onto the housing ladder in the 70s.
https://www.financialreporter.co.uk/income-to-hous...
3. Boomers are sitting on three quarters of the personal wealth in the UK, because they've had it so easy
https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/proper...
But yes, going to Vietnam for a long holiday and studying at University are the real problems here.
Re: 1/. My understanding of that figure is that these are averages for graduates and non-graduates. The upper line represents lawyers, doctors, and all the other professions which pay considerably more than other jobs. In other words, a degree is no guarantee of significantly higher income.They spend so much time in their own heads, seething with anger about "the state of [insert boomer target] nowadays", that they convince themselves that their silly opinions are actually facts.
A few inconvenient facts:
1. People with degrees earn significantly more than those without, and contribute significantly more in income tax through their lives: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191970/annual...
2. Only "being in work for 10 minutes" has nothing to do with young people being unable to afford a house. The average house price to income ratio has more than doubled since the boomers stumbled onto the housing ladder in the 70s.
https://www.financialreporter.co.uk/income-to-hous...
3. Boomers are sitting on three quarters of the personal wealth in the UK, because they've had it so easy
https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/proper...
But yes, going to Vietnam for a long holiday and studying at University are the real problems here.
Re: 3. I was born in London and lived there with my parents until I was married. I don't want to burst your bubble - in fact I do, so hopefully I will - but there was no way I could afford a house in London back then. I had to move to a village in Kent and then commute daily.
I'm sorry to spread the inconvenience, but:
We boomers had it so much easier than most today. We didn't have mobile phones to splash out on. That was a relief to us. Deposits for houses took my fiancée and I two years to save for, so we didn't have to fork out on foreign holidays, flash cars and such. Such a let-off. In that two years, we lived with our respective parents, so didn't have all that expense of living together. Patience came so easy to us back then. For the first two years of marriage my wages went on the mortgage, so there was no temptation to buy new things, which made it so much easier to accept the generosity of friends and family. And we were so lucky with inflation pushing up the value of our house. Easy money. The fact that it pushed up the price of essentials was easy because we were so used to managing our budget. I mean, we weren't tempted with credit cards - which made life so easy. I know how much kids today struggle to pay off their credit card after they've been to IKEA. I feel so sorry for them.
We boomers don't know how lucky we are, what with the houses we bought all those years ago being worth a lot more than when we were young. We were just sitting with a calculator (actually a pencil and paper) totaling how much we were earning by not being able to afford to do much else but sit at home. We were saved from having to eat nasty foreign food because we had holidays in the UK. England in fact. Some years we went without a holiday, so were spared from sleeping in strange beds. Once I bought a frame tent, the world of more than a week's holiday a year (if that) opened up for us.
There was a massive downside; because of the world war, we were deprived the great relief of blaming others for our own problems. We just had to get over ourselves.
crankedup5 said:
Electro1980 said:
crankedup5 said:
Electro1980 said:
crankedup5 said:
Not sure how young people cannot improve their lives if they so wish, big World out there.
Retirement age will again increase to 67 years of age in 2028 and another increase to 68 years in 2046. Retirement is not compulsory in all circumstances, which is how it should be.
From the person who screams and cries every time someone suggests the tripple lock is unaffordable? “I’m alright Jack” through and through.Retirement age will again increase to 67 years of age in 2028 and another increase to 68 years in 2046. Retirement is not compulsory in all circumstances, which is how it should be.
I do think a safeguard is required that facilitates an increase in pensions each year that keeps the pension some sort of meaningful allowance for those that retire.
Stop your lies and misinterpretations, I think that most rational people would not interpret my post that you dug out as ‘screams and cries every time somebody suggests the triple lock is unaffordible’
Edited by crankedup5 on Monday 20th November 11:15
As I said, “I’m alright Jack”. Sums up your attitude towards many things.
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