Teacher fired for not using preferred pronouns!

[BikeBikeBIke]

gotoPzero said:

If I was this teacher I would have turned up to the tribunal in high heels and a dress and demand I am now called Rachel, or whatever.

"I identify as someone who's been unfairly dismissed."

[Boringvolvodriver]

gregs656 said:

Leptons said:

I don’t need to because it’s there in black and white. You can’t tell everyone you’re a man, ask for male pronouns and then enter a women’s competition.

Good old logic and common sense.

It is possible the student was being antagonistic when they asked if they could attend.

This crossed my mind as well - he was almost in a no win situation - say no as you identify as a boy and they kick off, say yes and has yo put the female name down. That said did he really have to write the name on the board?

Worth pointing out that on exam board papers for external exams, the pupil has to put their legal birth name on their paper as the entry is made under that name.

[8.4L 154]

According to court sources today he has admitted to "sitting the student down" and "giving unwanted medical advice" and that the student reduced and stopped attending lessons.

He also attempted to have one to one discussions with the student despite being told explicitly not to and has had warnings about his trans views in previous jobs.

[Hants PHer]

otolith said:

Hmm...

Mr Lister has previously said the decision of Student A to use male pronouns had the effect of "compelled speech" - meaning he and fellow students had to follow their wish, irrespective of their own beliefs.

"I believe the student was immersed in a cult. I believe transgender ideology is a cult and should not be encouraged and supported in schools."

Mr Lister denied he held "extreme" views after agreeing he believed that if a parent supported their child's wish to transition, they should be "investigated for Munchausen's by proxy".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c51m4xvmy81o

Yes I know, I read that too. But what he said about his beliefs to the tribunal might differ from what he said to Student A. I suppose it depends on what hid actually did and said to Student A. I mean, if he was kind and understanding in person, then went home muttering "Compelled speech, grrr" under his breath, it would be unfair to dismiss him, in my opinion.

[otolith]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Wonder how the school handled PE. Hard to imagine the student being keen on stripping off for a shower with the other boys and 80 minutes of Rugby.

It's not a school, it's a further education college. They don't do that.

https://www.newcollege.ac.uk/

In any case, kids now apparently don't generally use the showers - and the policy for the last 25 years has been to build cubicles rather than the communal facilities my generation was forced to use.

[XCP]

bhstewie said:

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Quite. We had a Sharon who grew a beard and is now Shaun. Big deal. I had more important things to worry about frankly.

[Gecko1978]

8.4L 154 said:

According to court sources today he has admitted to "sitting the student down" and "giving unwanted medical advice" and that the student reduced and stopped attending lessons.

He also attempted to have one to one discussions with the student despite being told explicitly not to and has had warnings about his trans views in previous jobs.

Seems the consensus is he was a bit of a tt but he might win unfair dismissal due to conflicting rules.

[XCP]

otolith said:

It's not a school, it's a further education college. They don't do that.

https://www.newcollege.ac.uk/

In any case, kids now apparently don't generally use the showers - and the policy for the last 25 years has been to build cubicles rather than the communal facilities my generation was forced to use.

They're in for a shock when they play club Rugby then.

[Leptons]

gregs656 said:

Leptons said:

I don’t need to because it’s there in black and white. You can’t tell everyone you’re a man, ask for male pronouns and then enter a women’s competition.

Good old logic and common sense.

It is possible the student was being antagonistic when they asked if they could attend.

I can’t see any other reason why someone who felt strongly about their gender would ask the question in front of classroom full of kids, and to a Teacher they knew they’d get the desired reaction from…

[otolith]

XCP said:

They're in for a shock when they play club Rugby then.

Yeah, but 99.7% of the population don't play club rugby, and presumably those who do know what they are letting themselves in for.

Not unusual for gyms to have communal showers, where participation is a lot higher. Lots of people go home in their kit, though.

[Leptons]

XCP said:

bhstewie said:

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Quite. We had a Sharon who grew a beard and is now Shaun. Big deal. I had more important things to worry about frankly.

Not really the same thing is it unless you were having to answer silly questions about whether they could enter the opposite sex’s competitions and which bogs they can use?

[272BHP]

I am just confused about the word 'polite' being used on here as a supposed requirement for a teacher.

Since when did that become either necessary or expected?

[otolith]

272BHP said:

I am just confused about the word 'polite' being used on here as a supposed requirement for a teacher.

Since when did that become either necessary or expected?

Do you not expect reasonable manners from any professional you interact with? Do you tolerate rude and disrespectful staff?

[Boringvolvodriver]

272BHP said:

I am just confused about the word 'polite' being used on here as a supposed requirement for a teacher.

Since when did that become either necessary or expected?

I am guessing you haven’t been in a school for a while……….At the end of an exam where it had been necessary to remind a pupil several times about the requirement to face forward all the time, I was informed by said pupil that they had felt we had disrespected her by picking on them!

[J4CKO]

bhstewie said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

I always find it odd that when faced between simply being decent and polite to someone who's probably not having the easiest of times and who would appreciate a little support or being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose how many people will try to defend someone taking the being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose approach.

Yeah, this.

I know some get all frothy about pronouns, and sometimes it seems a little too complicated and can be quite militant in its application but this just seems like a young girl who, going forward wants to be known as male.

Its not hard, and its not like he misgendered him by mistake after being used to referring to him as her, he deliberately made a fuss about saying he wouldn't, strange hill to die on.

Then, as straight, white, males in middle age, you then get painted as the enemy and that you dont understand, and hate trans people. Thing is, its not a new thing, its just that trans people now have a voice that they didnt have, but like this guy, sometimes some get it a bit wrong or go a bit over the top and those are the ones you hear about most. Can see why some trans folk get a bit defensive to be fair after all those years of taking st and having the piss taken.

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Yeah, absolutely, saw this at Greater Manchester Police, an officer who had retired from the Police to work as a civilian in IT transitioned, and whilst he was off, ready to come back as she the GMP Lesbian and Gay association arranged a meeting of all IT staff where they went through the reasons, gender dysphoria etc and how to interact with him when she came back which was really useful, interesting and helpful.

It is what it is, and as you say, why be a dick about it ? Nobody does that lightly, its a big, big step and I cant begin to imagine how hard it must be.

My wife works in a school, and there are kids who want to be known by a different pronoun, and apparently the other kids are by and large brilliant about it.

[272BHP]

otolith said:

272BHP said:

I am just confused about the word 'polite' being used on here as a supposed requirement for a teacher.

Since when did that become either necessary or expected?

Do you not expect reasonable manners from any professional you interact with? Do you tolerate rude and disrespectful staff?

If they are in a position of authority and they have functional jurisdiction then politeness should be their decision surely?

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

[bitchstewie]

272BHP said:

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

Remarkable.

[captain_cynic]

bhstewie said:

272BHP said:

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

Remarkable.

Indeed.

If people aren't being polite to 272BHP... Maybe he needs to look at his own behaviour.

[QJumper]

272BHP said:

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

Not really. One can deserve the rudeness of others but, until rudeness is warranted, then politeness should be the default.

Respect is a reflection of the person that's respected, but politeness is a reflection of the person being polite.

[otolith]

272BHP said:

otolith said:

272BHP said:

I am just confused about the word 'polite' being used on here as a supposed requirement for a teacher.

Since when did that become either necessary or expected?

Do you not expect reasonable manners from any professional you interact with? Do you tolerate rude and disrespectful staff?

If they are in a position of authority and they have functional jurisdiction then politeness should be their decision surely?

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

I find that a rather strange position. We expect police officers to be polite and respectful. We expect the same from doctors, tax inspectors, ticket inspectors, doormen, receptionists. Even setting aside any idea that it's appropriate to default to treating anyone disrespectfully if they don't have a choice about being there, this is a further education college, not a Borstal.