Another American shooting incident.

[968]

ErnestM said:

968 said:

Quite correct. The full enquiry will be most illuminating, and will I suspect throw the spotlight on many missed opportunities. I wonder though whether such community events should have some level of security attached to prevent a shooter getting within a few feet of a public figure? I don't know how it works over there but aren't audiences searched?

This was an announced "chat with the community" type thing. Most House Members have trouble even getting people to show up at these things. That being said, it depends on the community. In Orlando, I know that OPD (Orlando Police Dept) or the Orange County sherrif's office ususally has some officers in attendance. There could not have been too big of a crowd if he was able to get through it quickly with a drawn gun (and a G19 with a 30 round mag sticking out is (a)hard to conceal and (b)unmistakeably a weapon)

By the way. Heroes:

Washington Post Article

Wow. Hats off to those people. Quite amazingly brave. Most people wouldve shat their pants.

[Victor McDade]

El Guapo said:

Arizona does have the death penalty. There is no doubt about the killer's identity and there are aggravating factors (murder of a federal official, multiple victims including a 9 year-old child).
The only question is how long the legal process will take before Loughner gets the needle.

Not if he's mentally ill.

[ErnestM]

CNN piece:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/09/arizona.shooti...

Includes a link to the Federal Indictment. That's the Federal one. No death penalty. The Arizona one should follow which will include the little girl that was murdered (death penalty case). The Feds cannot charge him for that because they can only charge for those that were federal officers/employees.

[ErnestM]

Victor McDade said:

El Guapo said:

Arizona does have the death penalty. There is no doubt about the killer's identity and there are aggravating factors (murder of a federal official, multiple victims including a 9 year-old child).
The only question is how long the legal process will take before Loughner gets the needle.

Not if he's mentally ill.

Depends on how good his attorney is. But - you may be correct. He may not get the death penalty, but I doubt he will ever be released.

[968]

ErnestM said:

Victor McDade said:

El Guapo said:

Arizona does have the death penalty. There is no doubt about the killer's identity and there are aggravating factors (murder of a federal official, multiple victims including a 9 year-old child).
The only question is how long the legal process will take before Loughner gets the needle.

Not if he's mentally ill.

Depends on how good his attorney is. But - you may be correct. He may not get the death penalty, but I doubt he will ever be released.

So it seems he had issues which his college left him to get a dr to certify him as not being a danger. That is quite amazing, if true, that they didnt take responsibility.

[ErnestM]

968 said:

ErnestM said:

Victor McDade said:

El Guapo said:

Arizona does have the death penalty. There is no doubt about the killer's identity and there are aggravating factors (murder of a federal official, multiple victims including a 9 year-old child).
The only question is how long the legal process will take before Loughner gets the needle.

Not if he's mentally ill.

Depends on how good his attorney is. But - you may be correct. He may not get the death penalty, but I doubt he will ever be released.

So it seems he had issues which his college left him to get a dr to certify him as not being a danger. That is quite amazing, if true, that they didnt take responsibility.

I agree. They should have probably taken some sort of official action rather than just an administrative one. The following page has a pretty good explanation of what can be caught with a firearms background check:

http://www.comprehensivebackgroundcheck.info/firea...

[davepoth]

ErnestM said:

968 said:

Quite correct. The full enquiry will be most illuminating, and will I suspect throw the spotlight on many missed opportunities. I wonder though whether such community events should have some level of security attached to prevent a shooter getting within a few feet of a public figure? I don't know how it works over there but aren't audiences searched?

This was an announced "chat with the community" type thing. Most House Members have trouble even getting people to show up at these things. That being said, it depends on the community. In Orlando, I know that OPD (Orlando Police Dept) or the Orange County sherrif's office ususally has some officers in attendance. There could not have been too big of a crowd if he was able to get through it quickly with a drawn gun (and a G19 with a 30 round mag sticking out is (a)hard to conceal and (b)unmistakeably a weapon)

By the way. Heroes:

Washington Post Article

That is majorly brave. I'd be taking my hat off if I was wearing one.

House Members are roughly equivalent to MPs in UK parliament. Certainly they don't get police protection here; there was a case of an MP getting knifed a while back at his office.

Having lived in the US for a bit, after 9/11, I asked a few people about guns, since it was a bit of a novel topic for me. As it turns out, the system for getting a gun in some states is not that much less strict than it is in the UK - certainly they do seem to get checked for "fitness" in most states.

[Pesty]

davepoth said:

ErnestM said:

968 said:

Quite correct. The full enquiry will be most illuminating, and will I suspect throw the spotlight on many missed opportunities. I wonder though whether such community events should have some level of security attached to prevent a shooter getting within a few feet of a public figure? I don't know how it works over there but aren't audiences searched?

This was an announced "chat with the community" type thing. Most House Members have trouble even getting people to show up at these things. That being said, it depends on the community. In Orlando, I know that OPD (Orlando Police Dept) or the Orange County sherrif's office ususally has some officers in attendance. There could not have been too big of a crowd if he was able to get through it quickly with a drawn gun (and a G19 with a 30 round mag sticking out is (a)hard to conceal and (b)unmistakeably a weapon)

By the way. Heroes:

Washington Post Article

That is majorly brave. I'd be taking my hat off if I was wearing one.

House Members are roughly equivalent to MPs in UK parliament. Certainly they don't get police protection here; there was a case of an MP getting knifed a while back at his office.

Having lived in the US for a bit, after 9/11, I asked a few people about guns, since it was a bit of a novel topic for me. As it turns out, the system for getting a gun in some states is not that much less strict than it is in the UK - certainly they do seem to get checked for "fitness" in most states.

Yes hats off indeed to those 3 people amazingly brave. I'd have been running for cover the other way.

My cousin lives in Arizona. He was quite amazed when he moved there I belive it is an open carry state. He said where he is its not unusual to see people walking around with a holster and gun on show.

It does make me wonder if the casualty list may have been shorter if there were a few 2nd amendment followers in the crowd.

[davepoth]

I'm happier with open carry than concealed carry - It's almost like the difference between fixed and mobile cameras, but with murder. If you walk into a bar and everyone there is packing, you really are not going to attempt to shoot the place up unless you have a death wish. Also if someone is carrying a gun, I'd like to know about it before they draw it.

Something interesting I have just read, Rep. Giffords has historically been pro-gun. Hopefully she'll make a good recovery (and the intitial signs are encouraging), but will her attitude change?

[jeff m]

ErnestM said:

By the way. Heroes:

Washington Post Article

From the article it would appear some gun savvy person saw the slide open and recognised an opportunity.

Still brave.

[Jimbeaux]

968 said:

ErnestM said:

968 said:

This is perhaps the key issue then. How was it that all info was not disclosed when he purchased his firearm? The other issue is that it seems that his behaviour was known to be more than odd, at school etc, I wonder if agencoes could've intervened to provide help earlier.

Yes. If somebody had referred his behaviour to the authorities and they had performed an on the record phsyc evaluation of him, that would have helped. Also, he was convicted of midemeanor "posession of drug paraphernalia". Usually, that is a first offender reduction from felony drug possesion in most jurisdictions. Again, had he been convicted of a felony, chances are he would not have passed the background check.

I think that we are going to see that this is a disturbed individual and that this event was the culmination of the unintended consequences of leniency and a certain amount of apathy on the parts of those people (his school instructor when he continually interupted class, prosecuting attorneies, etc) that could have made a difference.

I will, of course, revise my opinions if other information becomes available.

Quite correct. The full enquiry will be most illuminating, and will I suspect throw the spotlight on many missed opportunities. I wonder though whether such community events should have some level of security attached to prevent a shooter getting within a few feet of a public figure? I don't know how it works over there but aren't audiences searched?

That came up this morning. Congress members were advised to look after their own security when roaming in public. That would come from their own budgets I assume. This woman, and many others, frequently do corner shop meetings in order to allow informal contact with their constituency.

[Jimbeaux]

davepoth said:

I'm happier with open carry than concealed carry - It's almost like the difference between fixed and mobile cameras, but with murder. If you walk into a bar and everyone there is packing, you really are not going to attempt to shoot the place up unless you have a death wish. Also if someone is carrying a gun, I'd like to know about it before they draw it.

Something interesting I have just read, Rep. Giffords has historically been pro-gun. Hopefully she'll make a good recovery (and the intitial signs are encouraging), but will her attitude change?

My bet is no.

[Bing o]

"Neurosurgeon Dr Michael Lemole has removed half of her skull to give the tissue room. The bone is being preserved at a cold temperature and can be reattached when the swelling subsides."

Holy heck!! I have my opinions on the state of US politics, but my thoughts are with the victims today - this cannot be a good thing at a time when politicians should be engaging with the public more.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12148446

[Corsair7]

What will happen if this guys stands up in court and says something along the lines of "Sarah Palin wanted her targeted so I followed her instructions"....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345682/Sa...

[zakelwe]

davepoth said:

I'm happier with open carry than concealed carry - It's almost like the difference between fixed and mobile cameras, but with murder. If you walk into a bar and everyone there is packing, you really are not going to attempt to shoot the place up unless you have a death wish.

Or drunk and angry about life. I'd rather walk into a bar with no guns.

At least he didn't have one of these bad boy conversions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

fired by DangerousBob. Imagine if he walked into your bar with that last clip fitted, would you still feel ok as long as you could see it?


Andy

[ErnestM]

Corsair7 said:

What will happen if this guys stands up in court and says something along the lines of "Sarah Palin wanted her targeted so I followed her instructions"....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345682/Sa...

Or even "the daily Kos made me do it..."?

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&page...

- - -

Politicizing this is not a good tactic for either the left or the right, as 968 and others have already alluded to. Both sides would lose.

This person is a lone, deluded, "voices in the head" wacko. Surprised he didn't have a copy of "catcher in the rye" in his pocket.

[Pesty]

Corsair7 said:

What will happen if this guys stands up in court and says something along the lines of "Sarah Palin wanted her targeted so I followed her instructions"....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345682/Sa...

I don;t know but Obama had a very similar map showing targets and talked about going behind enemy lines. He also said something like They brought a knife to a gun fight.

Funny how nobody is attacking Obama for using this rhetoric.
This tragedy should not be exploited by either side it does seems as though the democrats are trying to do so.
The guy was a nutter.

boths sides use this kind of language. I cross hair denotes something you ar aiming at IMO its nothing sinister I'm sure over here politicians use words like targeting all teh time.

Edited by Pesty on Monday 10th January 11:19

[Manee]

As bad as i feel about the people dying and getting injured

just happy he wasnt another nutjob muslim. but why isnt he a terrorist?

[ErnestM]

zakelwe said:

davepoth said:

I'm happier with open carry than concealed carry - It's almost like the difference between fixed and mobile cameras, but with murder. If you walk into a bar and everyone there is packing, you really are not going to attempt to shoot the place up unless you have a death wish.

Or drunk and angry about life. I'd rather walk into a bar with no guns.

At least he didn't have one of these bad boy conversions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

fired by DangerousBob. Imagine if he walked into your bar with that last clip fitted, would you still feel ok as long as you could see it?


Andy

1. In most jurisdictions in the US it is illegal to imbibe and be armed. The offense would result in a felony arrest and a conviction would mean giving up your firearms.

2. A Glock 18 is not a conversion. It is a purpose built "machine gun" under BATFE regs and, since most were manufactured after 1986, not available for purchase by anyone except for law enforcement or the military. Any conversion of a Glock 17 (the same size pistol but in semi auto) is illegal.

3. After reading some of the UK media articles, I have come to the inescapable conclusion that the UK media need somebody on staff to vet their weapons descriptions and explain what weapons are capable of and not capable of.

- - -

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that this nutter intended to commit "suicide by cop" and his plan didn't work out. He also appears to have had limited knowledge of firearms and just went for what he thought was the "coolest" according to what he may have read or what he saw in the movies.

[Eric Mc]

I hope they investigate how he came to have this weapon. Did he hold it legally or illegally?

It is true that we in the UK are not familiar with all the gun laws that exist in the US. Indeed, gun law in the US is extremely complicated because different states have different regulations.