Bahrain Protests

[Eric Mc]

Derek Smith said:

Eric Mc said:

I haven't read your post because of its length but what are your criteria for "legitimate" regimes?

And at what point should the population decide that a regime no longer has legitimacy?

Lawful. The state is internationally recognised, has treaties. The fact that it is not our idea of a democracy despite having elections is of no account. We should not impose our beliefs on others over and above criticisms of accepted human rights violations.

I don't see any limit as such. It is almost impossible to define.

There was PIRA in Northern Ireland. Should their street demonstrations and such be sufficient to render the province illegitimate? Should the fact that they behaved illegally be something that should stop them being considered as suitable for government?

If you read the post above, at least that bit of it which was not cut and paste, you will see my point of view on the matter. I won't repeat it here.

The Nazis were the lawful leaders of their country. Didn't make them right.

The RIGHT to protest should be ingrained in society. Protests should not be put down by violent slaughter - whether in Libya or Northern Ireland.

[Victor McDade]

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy.

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

[Jimbeaux]

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy.

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

I will play your game. Obviously, the people would be the best answer. The installing of Democracy we have been into lately is not, IMO, always good. I believe Democracy is the best form of government; however, I do not believe all nations or people are mature enough or ready to handle it. Sadly, some need dictators or autocrats to keep things settled.

[Victor McDade]

Jimbeaux said:

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy.

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

I will play your game. Obviously, the people would be the best answer. The installing of Democracy we have been into lately is not, IMO, always good. I believe Democracy is the best form of government; however, I do not believe all nations or people are mature enough or ready to handle it. Sadly, some need dictators or autocrats to keep things settled.

Getting into some dangerous territory here. Why not take it a step further and stop voters with low IQs or learning difficulties from voting in our own democracies?

[Munter]

Victor McDade said:

Why not take it a step further and stop voters with low IQs or learning difficulties from voting in our own democracies?

Damned if I know. I'd suggest if people can't answer a fairly easy set of questions about the local political process then they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Which would knock out those with low IQ.

[MOTORVATOR]

Jimbeaux said:

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy.

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

I will play your game. Obviously, the people would be the best answer. The installing of Democracy we have been into lately is not, IMO, always good. I believe Democracy is the best form of government; however, I do not believe all nations or people are mature enough or ready to handle it. Sadly, some need dictators or autocrats to keep things settled.

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

[allnighter]

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

[Jimbeaux]

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy.

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

I will play your game. Obviously, the people would be the best answer. The installing of Democracy we have been into lately is not, IMO, always good. I believe Democracy is the best form of government; however, I do not believe all nations or people are mature enough or ready to handle it. Sadly, some need dictators or autocrats to keep things settled.

Getting into some dangerous territory here. Why not take it a step further and stop voters with low IQs or learning difficulties from voting in our own democracies?

That might save us from many of the problems we face now. Reading tesst to ensure that a voter can comprehend what the hell they are voting for. Makes sense doesn't it? But :Oh how dare I!".

[Jimbeaux]

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

'adult supervision' from perhaps the country that's bombed more other countries than anyone else?

[SplatSpeed]

Jimbeaux said:

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

you do have a point.

a mix between south central LA and Utah

[allnighter]

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

[Victor McDade]

Come on Jim, its fairly obvious why you don't want those in Bahrain to exercise their democratic right and its nothing to do with them being a bit thick, politically 'immature' or tribal. You, like many do and legitimately so, fear that given the right the Shiite majority will install a pro Shiite government and thus Iran will become a heck a lot more influential in the region.

Nothing wrong with that view - you're just looking after your own interests like we all should - but you really don't need to dress it up as anything else.

[Jimbeaux]

Hugo a Gogo said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

'adult supervision' from perhaps the country that's bombed more other countries than anyone else?

I was referring to the type of leaders they have had themselves, not another country. As to your remark; many of those "other" nations would have bombed more and with less concern had they simply had the means. Don't be simple.

[Jimbeaux]

SplatSpeed said:

Jimbeaux said:

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

you do have a point.

a mix between south central LA and Utah

[Jimbeaux]

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

That is my opinion. What is your understanding and take on the matter??

[Jimbeaux]

Victor McDade said:

Come on Jim, its fairly obvious why you don't want those in Bahrain to exercise their democratic right and its nothing to do with them being a bit thick, politically 'immature' or tribal. You, like many do and legitimately so, fear that given the right the Shiite majority will install a pro Shiite government and thus Iran will become a heck a lot more influential in the region.

Nothing wrong with that view - you're just looking after your own interests like we all should - but you really don't need to dress it up as anything else.

Don't you think the Bahrain people, like the Egyptians, are a bit smarter than to allow an extremist theocracy to take hold? As to interests, of course you are correct. I see no shame in overtly looking to interests. If whoever comes in does not want our boats docked there, someone else will take the money IMO.

[MOTORVATOR]

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

That is my opinion. What is your understanding and take on the matter??

If I may pass on the thoughts of someone living in the Gold Tower overlooking the roundabout, his take is certainly not one of tribes running around killing each other. I think the majority there are capable of rational thought.

In fact holding the population back in the first place gives rise to extremism so I would say give them what was agreed 10 years ago and continue the process to avoid that.

[Victor McDade]

Jimbeaux said:

Victor McDade said:

Come on Jim, its fairly obvious why you don't want those in Bahrain to exercise their democratic right and its nothing to do with them being a bit thick, politically 'immature' or tribal. You, like many do and legitimately so, fear that given the right the Shiite majority will install a pro Shiite government and thus Iran will become a heck a lot more influential in the region.

Nothing wrong with that view - you're just looking after your own interests like we all should - but you really don't need to dress it up as anything else.

Don't you think the Bahrain people, like the Egyptians, are a bit smarter than to allow an extremist theocracy to take hold? As to interests, of course you are correct. I see no shame in overtly looking to interests. If whoever comes in does not want our boats docked there, someone else will take the money IMO.

Having a Shiite led government which will naturally be closer to Iran (much like the current Iraqi one) is not the same as allowing 'an extremist theocracy to take hold'.

[Jimbeaux]

MOTORVATOR said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

That is my opinion. What is your understanding and take on the matter??

If I may pass on the thoughts of someone living in the Gold Tower overlooking the roundabout, his take is certainly not one of tribes running around killing each other. I think the majority there are capable of rational thought.

In fact holding the population back in the first place gives rise to extremism so I would say give them what was agreed 10 years ago and continue the process to avoid that.

Speaking of Bahrain, I have agreed all along they are smarter than to allow extremism (I hope). My point to Allnighter was of the ME as a larger whole.