Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[732NM]

Mrr T said:

I am not being condescending just explaining the facts. It's some think anyone, such as myself is aware off.

A Belgium moving into Germany does not get residency rights. They do not need to apply for residence since they have an EU right, it's best they do so as to get assess to rights such as health care and the rights to work. However a brit unlike a Belgium is subject to the 90/180 day rule. Which the EU and the schengen countries must monitor by stamping passports as you enter and leave.

Unless they apply for a visa, which many people do, which allows them to live and work there. A system most nations use, including the UK.

[paul0843]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Might be a bit more germane to this thread if you could present us with the evidence of Brexit benefits outweighing its costs. "Put up or desist" is the expression I believe.

I've never claimed that. I have said that I supported Brexit, That I still support Brexit for the reasons I supported it in the first place. That when I voted for Brexit I did so fully expecting there to be issues post Brexit. That I think the Govt could and should do more to exploit the opportunities offered by Brexit. HTH.

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

I am not being condescending just explaining the facts. It's some think anyone, such as myself is aware off.

A Belgium moving into Germany does not get residency rights. They do not need to apply for residence since they have an EU right, it's best they do so as to get assess to rights such as health care and the rights to work. However a brit unlike a Belgium is subject to the 90/180 day rule. Which the EU and the schengen countries must monitor by stamping passports as you enter and leave.

No, eu citizens do not have automatic residency rights.

I'd suggest you even do some basic self-education on the matter, before throwing your condescension about so willy-nilly.

M.

It's clear you think you know what your posting about. However, as some one who has been dealing with this over the past year, let me help you, you have no idea.

It's getting boring but one last correction.

EU+ citizens have extensive rights to reside in any EU+ country. These rights are established under SM regulation. We tend to refer to this as freedom of movement of labour. But the wording is actually freedom of movement to exercise a treaty right. This effectively covers every one except where they would need access to public funds. So not just working, it covers any one who can live on there own resources.

Some EU countries, in addition, require you to apply for a residency permit. This acknowledges your residency but your rights are under EU law. I do not know the rules in every EU country but I believe Ireland, for example, do not have residency permits. Certainly when the UK was in the EU it did not have residency permits.

Schengen builds on that by allowing passport free travel. However, that only works for EU+ counties since there citizens are not subject to the 90/180 rules. Since UK citizens are we need our passports stamped on entry and exit.

The whole situation is quite fun. My partner is an EU citizen. That means I have alright to live with her in any EU+ country. If we live in any EU+ but her native country my rights are under EU but as we live in her native country my rights are under domestic law. The forms for both are the same and the visa looks the same except for the visa type on the card. This means I get my passport stamped on entry and exit but someone with a visa under EU law does not. The reason being my visa is cancelled it I leave for more than 6 months but a visa under EU law is not.

The country I live in has just joined schengen. Although passport checks are initially only being removed at airports. This raises an interesting question which has been covered in local groups. When I fly within schengen there will be no passport checks. However, I should still find a passport control so as to get my passport stamped. Fun times.

Edited by Mrr T on Thursday 23 May 07:00

[andymadmak]

paul0843 said:

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

Correct

Edited to add: we have had a combination of factors as well as poor government. I think that the Johnson Government could and would have done more had Covid and Ukraine and cake not reared their ugly heads.

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 23 May 07:58

[Mrr T]

andymadmak said:

paul0843 said:

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

Correct

I have seen this statement many times and I always ask. What are these benefits the government is not exploiting? Oddly enough I never get a constructive reply.

I think what the poster really mean is brexit is a great idea so long as we can find a government which can find some benefits. Because clearly those in government who supported brexit have no idea of what the benefits are.

There is a reason for that. There really was only one potential benefit of brexit which could have offset the cost and that was a good trade real with the US. Which did not happen.

[S600BSB]

Mrr T said:

andymadmak said:

paul0843 said:

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

Correct

I have seen this statement many times and I always ask. What are these benefits the government is not exploiting? Oddly enough I never get a constructive reply.

I think what the poster really mean is brexit is a great idea so long as we can find a government which can find some benefits. Because clearly those in government who supported brexit have no idea of what the benefits are.

There is a reason for that. There really was only one potential benefit of brexit which could have offset the cost and that was a good trade real with the US. Which did not happen.

It’s just delusional. Simple.

[andymadmak]

Mrr T said:

andymadmak said:

paul0843 said:

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

Correct

I have seen this statement many times and I always ask. What are these benefits the government is not exploiting? Oddly enough I never get a constructive reply.

I think what the poster really mean is brexit is a great idea so long as we can find a government which can find some benefits. Because clearly those in government who supported brexit have no idea of what the benefits are.

There is a reason for that. There really was only one potential benefit of brexit which could have offset the cost and that was a good trade real with the US. Which did not happen.

Benefits have been outlined any number of times, however what I might see as a benefit, posters like you do not recognise as such. So it becomes a sterile exchange.

[Mrr T]

andymadmak said:

Mrr T said:

andymadmak said:

paul0843 said:

So Brexit is a great idea,just we have not had the correct government,sorry governments to reap the benefits ?
Paul

Correct

I have seen this statement many times and I always ask. What are these benefits the government is not exploiting? Oddly enough I never get a constructive reply.

I think what the poster really mean is brexit is a great idea so long as we can find a government which can find some benefits. Because clearly those in government who supported brexit have no idea of what the benefits are.

There is a reason for that. There really was only one potential benefit of brexit which could have offset the cost and that was a good trade real with the US. Which did not happen.

Benefits have been outlined any number of times, however what I might see as a benefit, posters like you do not recognise as such. So it becomes a sterile exchange.

The only benefit I have seen outlined many times is the old sovereignty chestnut. Your right I do not recognise it as such. But in this case I assume your claiming the government is missing economic benefits which will help off set the costs. So come on what are they because no one including the brexit government seems to have any idea.

[blueg33]

IIRC JRM had to ask the public to suggest some benefits because all he had was signage in Dartford Tunnel

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

It's clear you think you know what your posting about. However, as some one who has been dealing with this over the past year, let me help you, you have no idea.

It's getting boring but one last correction.

EU+ citizens have extensive rights to reside in any EU+ country. These rights are established under SM regulation. We tend to refer to this as freedom of movement of labour. But the wording is actually freedom of movement to exercise a treaty right. This effectively covers every one except where they would need access to public funds. So not just working, it covers any one who can live on there own resources.

Some EU countries, in addition, require you to apply for a residency permit. This acknowledges your residency but your rights are under EU law. I do not know the rules in every EU country but I believe Ireland, for example, do not have residency permits. Certainly when the UK was in the EU it did not have residency permits.

Schengen builds on that by allowing passport free travel. However, that only works for EU+ counties since there citizens are not subject to the 90/180 rules. Since UK citizens are we need our passports stamped on entry and exit.

The whole situation is quite fun. My partner is an EU citizen. That means I have alright to live with her in any EU+ country. If we live in any EU+ but her native country my rights are under EU but as we live in her native country my rights are under domestic law. The forms for both are the same and the visa looks the same except for the visa type on the card. This means I get my passport stamped on entry and exit but someone with a visa under EU law does not. The reason being my visa is cancelled it I leave for more than 6 months but a visa under EU law is not.

The country I live in has just joined schengen. Although passport checks are initially only being removed at airports. This raises an interesting question which has been covered in local groups. When I fly within schengen there will be no passport checks. However, I should still find a passport control so as to get my passport stamped. Fun times.

Edited by Mrr T on Thursday 23 May 07:00

Long post, and still wrong.

Residency is a national remit.

https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/migration/law-on...

You don't have the rights you (or your spouse) think you have.

Hell, I'll even use a uk example- pre-brexit, no EU national could work in the uk without a national insurance number.....

M.

[Mortarboard]

Mrr T said:

The only benefit I have seen outlined many times is the old sovereignty chestnut. Your right I do not recognise it as such. But in this case I assume your claiming the government is missing economic benefits which will help off set the costs. So come on what are they because no one including the brexit government seems to have any idea.

And what value is sovereignty if it's not used?

I think there's plenty of opportunities, but it does mean doing things differently, which is a difficult culture change.

M.

[catso]

andymadmak said:

I think that the Johnson Government could and would have done more had Covid and Ukraine and cake not reared their ugly heads.

[s1962a]

catso said:

andymadmak said:

I think that the Johnson Government could and would have done more had Covid and Ukraine and cake not reared their ugly heads.

We might be getting a UK<>India FTA soon, with one of the main sticking points being how many visas the Indians will get in return. Net migration to the UK is already close to a million each year, so I do wonder how many extra millions of visas we'll be offering to get this much coveted trade deal over the line so we can sell them our Whiskey.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

It's clear you think you know what your posting about. However, as some one who has been dealing with this over the past year, let me help you, you have no idea.

It's getting boring but one last correction.

EU+ citizens have extensive rights to reside in any EU+ country. These rights are established under SM regulation. We tend to refer to this as freedom of movement of labour. But the wording is actually freedom of movement to exercise a treaty right. This effectively covers every one except where they would need access to public funds. So not just working, it covers any one who can live on there own resources.

Some EU countries, in addition, require you to apply for a residency permit. This acknowledges your residency but your rights are under EU law. I do not know the rules in every EU country but I believe Ireland, for example, do not have residency permits. Certainly when the UK was in the EU it did not have residency permits.

Schengen builds on that by allowing passport free travel. However, that only works for EU+ counties since there citizens are not subject to the 90/180 rules. Since UK citizens are we need our passports stamped on entry and exit.

The whole situation is quite fun. My partner is an EU citizen. That means I have alright to live with her in any EU+ country. If we live in any EU+ but her native country my rights are under EU but as we live in her native country my rights are under domestic law. The forms for both are the same and the visa looks the same except for the visa type on the card. This means I get my passport stamped on entry and exit but someone with a visa under EU law does not. The reason being my visa is cancelled it I leave for more than 6 months but a visa under EU law is not.

The country I live in has just joined schengen. Although passport checks are initially only being removed at airports. This raises an interesting question which has been covered in local groups. When I fly within schengen there will be no passport checks. However, I should still find a passport control so as to get my passport stamped. Fun times.

Edited by Mrr T on Thursday 23 May 07:00

Long post, and still wrong.

Residency is a national remit.

https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/migration/law-on...

You don't have the rights you (or your spouse) think you have.

Hell, I'll even use a uk example- pre-brexit, no EU national could work in the uk without a national insurance number.....

M.

I said I would give up but it's actually getting quite funny. You posted a link. Can a suggest you open it again and scroll down and you will see on related topic a link to freedom of movement.

Here I will even save you the effort.

https://www.bmi.bund.de/EN/topics/migration/law-on...

Knock yourself out.

Oddly enough I have exactly the rights I outlined above. I even have my family reunification visa.

You do under UK law need a NI to work in the in the UK. However, before brexit an EU+ national could live indefinitely in the UK without a NI so long as they had sufficient means and no income which was subject to NI.

[Mortarboard]

The link says three months.

As per schengen.

3 months is not residency.

M.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

The link says three months.

As per schengen.

3 months is not residency.

M.

You really should read more than the first paragraph.

From the link.

Entry and residence of EU citizens

EU citizens may enter and stay in the territory of another Member States for up to three months without being subject to any conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

EU citizens have the right of residence for longer than three months if they

1. are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State or are seeking employment (for a certain length of time);
2. are not in employment or are students or trainees and have sufficient resources and comprehensive health insurance cover;
3. have the right of permanent residence (following legal residence of five years).
Family members, regardless of their citizenship, accompanying or joining an EU citizen who satisfies these conditions also have the right of residence for more than three months.
So the underlying idea is that in order to reside for more than three months in another Member State, EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State.

My rights are as a family member.

[Mortarboard]

And for the millionth time, those rights are not granted by schengen, ffs.

M.

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

And for the millionth time, those rights are not granted by schengen, ffs.

M.

I have never suggested they where. Schengen just adds passport free travel. But schengen only works when countries already have freedom of movement. The UK does not so is limited to 90/180. So cannot join schengen.

[sunbeam alpine]

andymadmak said:

Correct

Edited to add: we have had a combination of factors as well as poor government. I think that the Johnson Government could and would have done more had Covid and Ukraine and cake not reared their ugly heads.

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 23 May 07:58

I'd be interested to hear you expand on this - plus it's more in line with the subject of the thread.

Actual Brexit came into effect on 31st January 2020 - before Covid and the Ukraine war. By that date the agreements - and therefore the terms under which the UK would continue to trade with the EU - had been negotiated, agreed and signed by the Johnson government.

The deal was actually about as good as it could be - given the UK's red lines and the NI border situation - and a good bit better than government departments had been briefing right up to the signing.

I find it staggering that David Frost has since been so critical of an agreement he basically negotiated. Boris suggested that they signed the agreement to "get Brexit done" with the idea that they would renegotiate large chunks at a later date, but this suggests that he was either badly advised or ignorantly optimistic, given that as far as the EU was concerned, it was done and dusted.

Add to this that the UK has still to implement parts of the agreement like border controls, I don't see there being much interest within the EU in renegotiating.

[911hope]

Mrr T said:

I have never suggested they where. Schengen just adds passport free travel. But schengen only works when countries already have freedom of movement. The UK does not so is limited to 90/180. So cannot join schengen.

90/180 is due to being stupid enough to leave the EU.